Is Atheism unfalsifiable?

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McCulloch
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Is Atheism unfalsifiable?

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Furrowed Brow wrote:The principle he [the philosopher Karl Popper] came up with was a falsification principle. Any doctrine that made assertions about the world that cannot be falsified was not a science. This principle is a cornerstone of science.

Popper's point was that some doctrines were themselves unfalsifiable. No matter what evidence was promoted the doctrine provided an interpretation to fit the circumstance.
Theism is unfalsifiable. No matter what evidence is found, none of it could ever show that there is not some sort of supernatural being. Specific actions attributed to God can be falsified, but the principle that there is a supernatural being cannot be falsified.

Does that mean that the negation of Theism is also unfalsifiable? I don't know.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Post #11

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Hi McCulloch

You say
To me the question is, "Can there be something which could be proven but cannot be disproven?"
Well I'd say if something is proven to the level of a mathematical or logical proof then it is proven, and cannot be disproven.

Then there is evidential proof. That I guess at best can't do better than beyond reasonable doubt. Though logically speaking there is always room for disproof.

For instance, it could be proven that there are pink unicorns. The proof would consist of pointing out an example. Therefore, disbelief in pink unicorns is falsifiable. However, it cannot be proven that there are no pink unicorns. Therefore, belief in pink unicorns is unfalsifiable.
How about the Jabberwocky. That is a made up word. The Jabberwocky appeared in a poem and was the product of the imagination of Lewis Carroll. Before we ever go hunting Jabberwockies's we know we ain't ever going to find one. Jabberwockies are not open for empirical disproof. Are pink unicorns not like Jabberwockies?

So is God a pink Jabberwocky?

It is not such a silly question. Though Metacrock's argument for cosmological necessity fails, there is within it a tacit acceptance that the concept of God needs to be proved to be necessary to escape the fairies at the bottom of the garden type argument. Now I am 100% certain that no logical proof can be produced. Not because I'm an atheist, but because I know a bit about logic.

So what about empirical proof. Well all evidence is open to interpretation, and some interpretative frameworks cannot be falsified because they are self fulfilling as Popper recognized.

We can reject Astrology not because the premises look a bit airy fairy but the methodology is as leaky as a sieve. Any piece of evidence can be turned to support the prediction.

However does Atheism actually say anything about the world? Ok it says there is no God. But what about the empirical world. I don't think it does. If I see a famine on my TV screen I don't say that happened because there is no God. And this is me - I don't say ha! Those starving people are proof there is no God. Some Atheists might but I think that is a logical mistake. However when and where I see evil in the world I find no compulsion to change my world view.

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Post #12

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Hi goat

you say
I don't know what evidence would be
good enough to 'prove' god, but that doesn't mean that the evidence can't exist.

Doesn't mean it does exist either.
Well it depends on the nature of the doctrine. As I've said above. Astrology cannot be falsified, because it is self fulfilling. Ok it could be falsified if Astrology tried to raise itself to the rigour of a science, but it does not do that. Until that day Astrologers will continue to turn the evidence to fit their predictions.

The difference between Atheism and Astrology is that Atheism makes no predictions about the world.

However when I say Jesus was not resurrected though that conclusion suits my atheism and atheism is my motivation, I actually get to that conclusion through inductive logic, deductive logic, arguments for plausibility etc.

So say someone actually managed to demonstrate under scientific rigour a resurrection. I'd then have to admit a resurrection of the kind demonstrated was possible. But that would not disprove my atheism, because I'd be seeking out the scientific explanation not the religious.

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Post #13

Post by McCulloch »

Furrowed Brow wrote:So is God a pink Jabberwocky?

It is not such a silly question. Though Metacrock's argument for cosmological necessity fails, there is within it a tacit acceptance that the concept of God needs to be proved to be necessary to escape the fairies at the bottom of the garden type argument. Now I am 100% certain that no logical proof can be produced. Not because I'm an atheist, but because I know a bit about logic.

So what about empirical proof. Well all evidence is open to interpretation, and some interpretative frameworks cannot be falsified because they are self fulfilling as Popper recognized.

We can reject Astrology not because the premises look a bit airy fairy but the methodology is as leaky as a sieve. Any piece of evidence can be turned to support the prediction.

However does Atheism actually say anything about the world? Ok it says there is no God. But what about the empirical world. I don't think it does. If I see a famine on my TV screen I don't say that happened because there is no God. And this is me - I don't say ha! Those starving people are proof there is no God. Some Atheists might but I think that is a logical mistake. However when and where I see evil in the world I find no compulsion to change my world view.
I'm trying to work through the implications here. If Atheism is unfalsifiable, then there cannot be, even conceptually, evidence that could prove the existence of God. Therefore, would not agnosticism be the only logically sound position to take?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #14

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Hi McCuloch,

You ask
I'm trying to work through the implications here. If Atheism is unfalsifiable, then there cannot be, even conceptually, evidence that could prove the existence of God. Therefore, would not agnosticism be the only logically sound position to take?
It depends on the area of the debate your looking at. I think Creationism cannot be falsified in Popper's sense, but is quite clearly false and has the intellectual merit of astrology. Even an agnostic about astrology, if they are rigorous in their thinking should come to see that Astrology is bogus. Same for Creationism too.

Now as we go up the scale, I think the arguments get tougher to kick in to touch. Ok I reject the resurrection and my atheism is a motivation, but I'm also wedded to intellectual self honesty and rigour as best I can be rigorous. Forget about Atheism, my intellectual tool kit leads me to reject the resurrection.

I have already said that everything I know about the form of logic tells me logical arguments like Plantinga's or Metacrock's for (and against) God are always crook!

But when we get to the top of the scale. Is there a God? (I've already kicked the Christian God into touch at this point) then I suggest this is where reasoning leaves off. The question is floating at a higher altitude than the mountain (OK maybe a small mound) of reason upon which I stand.

For me it gets worse, I sign up to a viewpoint that puts anything metaphysical into the realm of illogical nonsense. The metaphysical statement - "There is a God!" cannot be true or false because their is no definable logical object God. "There is a God!" is meaningless., viz', it cannot be true or false. However there is a whole realm of discourse, and story etc that give the word God a sense. But none of all that has ever been written or said can turn a meaningless sentence into a meaningful one. Moreover all that has been written and said about metaphysical entities, realms or beings is illogical nonsense because they rely for their sense on their metaphysical propositions being meaningful. So the sentence, if it is meant to be a metaphysical proposition, has no meaning and no sense and is illogical. :confused2:

So the metaphysical question Is there God? though grammatically correct, and appears to make sense, really does not. You might as well ask is there a %&^*?

Thus when I stand under a night sky full of stars and get all those funny feelings that come with trying to take in the magnitude. I get a sense of %&^*?. Now a religious person will say Ah! that's God. I'd say what you talking about Willis? That's just the universe and me being %&^*?. Nothing metaphysical about it at all. And every single piece of evidence or argument or experience I bump into is going to get the same response. Thus for this atheist there is no God because the concept is illogical nonsense. And I cannot be an agnostic because that requires accepting an illogical sentence as a proper proposition.

Ok. There is room in that argument to say maybe God is beyond thought and logic and words. Maybe so. But then you come down to how you feel about it. And I don't feel there is a God. And that feeling is not open for proofs and disproofs.

Where you go with this and what side of the fence you want to fall will depend on what theory of logic and language you sign up to. So before you can make sesne of the debate you need to get a clear view for yourself as to how language works, and where its limits lie.

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Post #15

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

I am probably just repeating what has all ready been established, but how can a subjective material being make any sort of judgement regarding that which is spiritual in nature?

Any stand that one takes concerning this issue (atheism included) can only be sustained by a groundless faith in one's convictions.

Funny that we spend so much time debating an inherently UNDEBATABLE subject. Why is Agnosticism not the obvious answer?

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Post #16

Post by QED »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:I am probably just repeating what has all ready been established, but how can a subjective material being make any sort of judgement regarding that which is spiritual in nature?
I don't regard that which is "spiritual" as being beyond judgment. For me there are compelling reasons to understand spirit entirely in terms of human nature -- artifacts of human processing to put it clinically. I have yet to be shown anything that cannot be understood in these terms but I'd be only too pleased to be presented with something to consider.

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Post #17

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Our personal perceptions do not offer any sort of window into the divine. We can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell; none of which is any use in percieving that which is entirely immaterial.
For me there are compelling reasons to understand spirit entirely in terms of human nature -- artifacts of human processing to put it clinically.
How can any such artifact be anything but material, having come from a material being?

What we are talking about is something completely beyond the laws of physics. You cannot look at a being bound by those laws and glean any sort of insight into that which exists beyond our familiar realm of reality.

You, I, nor anyone here has ever percieved anything that is not composed of matter. Understanding any entity outside such an existence is far beyond our ability.

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Post #18

Post by QED »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:Understanding any entity outside such an existence [our existence] is far beyond our ability.
And, I would add, beyond existing in a way that has any bearing whatsoever on ourselves.

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