Among the educated is belief in today's Gods superficial?

[marco]

In Greece and Rome it seems certain that the highly educated would not believe in Zeus or Jupiter or their subordinate gods. But they might publicly display respect either through fear or because they felt that it was no bad thing for the populace to be subservient to gods.

Why should the situation be different today? In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

Or do people simply take the line of least resistance and offer no objections?

Is there a third option? People then and now have truly believed in Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh or Allah?

[McCulloch]

As religion disappears a whole new basis for moral and ethical interpersonal standards will be needed. So we as a society had better get started with teaching our children why societies work best when we all seek to help each other, rather than to take an every man for himself approach.

A moral vacuum is worse than widespread belief in a loving, merciful God.

But there is no moral vacuum. Widespread belief in a loving merciful God has coexisted with slavery, human rights abuses, cruel punishments, and war. There has been no significant decline in morality coincident with the decline in religion. Atheists are not asking for a return to systematic racism. Secularists are not wanting to roll back women's rights and LGBQ rights. Humanists are not promoting the return of capital punishment and torture. I think that society's moral development is doing well with religion in decline.

[benchwarmer]

I think that society's moral development is doing well with religion in decline.

I totally agree. Religion insists on sticking to the moral code as it was thousands of years ago. With religion in decline, morals are free to develop and don't have to remain the backwards opinions of societies long since gone.

[bjs]

I can see you are explaining that Yahweh is merely a personification; the glory and the greatness exist beyond the portrayal.

Not a personification. A self-revelation.

The figure who performs the deeds and says the lines in the OT seems to me to be the artefact of men who envisaged gods or a god with the martial qualities they gave him. He is unworthy of human respect, much less love.

All I can say is that we have vastly different understandings of the OT.

[marco]

I am leaning towards the belief that gods are a political construct, even tradition. And that is all they have even been.

Yes, gods keep people in check. In primitive societies the man who spoke to gods or spirits held power. If the society is distinguished by its inherent goodness, its charity work and its humanitarian efforts then gods can be good. Is it right to have multitudes believe in a falsehood even when such belief brings benefits to mankind?

I wonder.

[liamconnor]

In Greece and Rome it seems certain that the highly educated would not believe in Zeus or Jupiter or their subordinate gods. But they might publicly display respect either through fear or because they felt that it was no bad thing for the populace to be subservient to gods.

Why should the situation be different today? In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

Or do people simply take the line of least resistance and offer no objections?

Is there a third option? People then and now have truly believed in Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh or Allah?

In Greece and Rome it seems certain that the highly educated would not believe in Zeus or Jupiter or their subordinate gods. But they might publicly display respect either through fear or because they felt that it was no bad thing for the populace to be subservient to gods.

That is my impression as well. I am not even convinced that the common folk really believed that all the stories attributed to the gods really happened.

Why should the situation be different today? In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

How on earth is someone supposed to measure the sincerity of another's proclaimed belief?

And what is the criterion for calling someone "educated"? College? Graduate? Has to believe the earth is old? Cannot believe Jesus was raised?

Is there a third option? People then and now have truly believed in Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh or Allah?

How about a forth option: then, some believed in Zeus and some did not. Now, some believe in Yahweh or Allah, some do not.

[marco]

Why should the situation be different today? In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

How on earth is someone supposed to measure the sincerity of another's proclaimed belief?

You've just overcome this objection by offering your opinion on this very point. You said:


"That is my impression as well. I am not even convinced that the common folk really believed that all the stories attributed to the gods really happened."

Nobody's looking for scientific certainty. What you've said suffices. But I suspect that you are rather unwilling to judge today's thinkers in the same way as you judged yesterday's.

And what is the criterion for calling someone "educated"? College? Graduate? Has to believe the earth is old? Cannot believe Jesus was raised?

I have a fair idea what is meant when I am told someone is educated. I assumed others had as well. Jesus and the age of the Earth would seem not to be part of the definition.

Is there a third option? People then and now have truly believed in Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh or Allah?

How about a forth option: then, some believed in Zeus and some did not. Now, some believe in Yahweh or Allah, some do not.

I think that is the same option, Liam. Today as then there are people who genuinely see gods such Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh and Allah as non-fictional.

In the future perhaps some debaters will wonder if today's thinkers really did believe in gods like Yahweh and Allah just as we wonder whether Plato and Pliny really believed in Zeus and Jupiter.

[1213]

In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

It is quite difficult to know who really believes. I know surely only one educated person who truly believes in Yahweh. It may be possible that there is more than one.

[marco]

In countries round the globe do educated people truly believe in Yahweh or Allah?

It is quite difficult to know who really believes. I know surely only one educated person who truly believes in Yahweh. It may be possible that there is more than one.

You are right, of course, that we don't know the hearts of strangers. We make guesses about the ancient thinkers and what they really believed. It's a question of whether Zeus, Jupiter, Allah and Yahweh are all of the same fictional substance and belief in them is for public display not from conviction.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I've taken the other option of viewing Abrahamic faiths within the contest of eastern thought Vedantic Buddhist and Taoist. Its a whole other world of thought .

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I've taken the other option of viewing Abrahamic faiths within the contest of eastern thought Vedantic Buddhist and Taoist. Its a whole other world of thought .

Put not your trust in princes, be they royal or religious - is good advice I think. The Abrahamic religions have too many appalling suggestions to be taken seriously. I can sympathise with Buddhist teaching, but it strikes me as displaying the kinder face of Christ and making it even kinder. Not a bad thing.

I like Khayyam's dismissive thoughts on human purpose, courtesy of Fitzgerald.

'Tis all a Checker-board of Nights and Days
Where Destiny with Men for Pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the Closet lays."
FitzGerald