Are there any good reasons to believe

[Elijah John]

Are there any good reasons to believe that Jesus is God?

a) From the "Old" Testament? Any clear reasons?

b) From the New Testament? Any clear, unambiguous and non-contradictory reasons to believe that Jesus is "God"?

c) Are there any good reasons to believe that "Jesus is God" outside of Church- tradition or Church interpretations of the Bible? Say from philosophical reasoning, or from Nature herself?

Or

d) Is such a belief completely subjective, and entirely a matter of faith?

Please address any combination of the above.

[onewithhim]

Sorry, bud....YOU don't give Jesus his true diligence. You are of the opinion that he COULDN'T sin.

He couldn't. If Jesus could sin and had actually sinned, then what in the hell do you think would have happened? Do you think that God would have taken that chance on a "what if"? No.

Jehovah's Witnesses simply have a misconstrued interpretation of Christian theology.

How is this honoring what he did?

It is honoring the fact that Jesus, being God in the flesh (John 1:1-14), voluntarily came on earth as a human being to dwell among his creation, and ultimately give his life for our sins (Phil 2:5-9).

He suffered greatly but all that is meaningless if he could not have given in and either fought his opposers with swords or denounced his faith and denied being the King of his Father's Kingdom.

God cannot sin. Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus cannot sin.

The fact that he didn't give in and not follow through with the purpose of his being there shows that he truly earned the Father's good pleasure and the further honor that was bestowed upon him. If he couldn't fail, what meaning is there in the fact that he was "obedient"?

Um, scripture says he was OBEDIENT to death (Phi 2:8), which simply means that he allowed his human body to die, which says nothing about his deity.

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father because he ACTED like the Father and he AGREED with the Father on everything.

LOL. So I guess Jesus is the only created being that ever "acted" like the Father and agree with the Father of everything?? Of all of the created beings, both angels and humans, Jesus is the ONLY one that could have done such, and he just HAPPENS to be the son of God?

Either mankind is extremely lucky to have the one guy capable of completing such a daunting task to actually complete it, or Jesus is much more than what the Watch Tower & Tract Society teaches he is.

He CHOSE to do everything the way the Father would have done it. He could also choose NOT to.

So if he chose not to, God would have to "find another way", huh? SMH. That is just bad Christian theology.

He lowered himself, but you say he was still God, right?

Sure was.

How could he be given any higher exaltation than being what you say he ALREADY was?

Well, if you lower yourself, the only way to go is back up, right?

And now we're slamming the Watchtower, eh? Can you engage in any kind of conversation without resorting to putting them down?

I am just merely going after the head of the snake.

How about just sticking to the subject and offering meaningful points of view?

How about acknowledging the fact that you can accept Jesus as Lord and Savior without belonging to a man-made organization which was founded by a guy who practiced pyramidology and gave false prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ.

Instead of maligning the brothers in Brooklyn (who are now in Warwick, N.Y.), can you explain your understanding of God's Kingdom? Also, what do YOU offer that will give people a real hope for the future?

Simple, accept Jesus and Lord and Savior, repent of your sins, and follow the teachings of Christ and receive eternal salvation...or, opposite of what I just said.

That is the "real" hope for the future.

Of course he could have sinned! Otherwise his remaining faithful wouldn't have meant a thing! If he had given in, God (the Father) would have had to turn to another angelic person to come to the earth and become a perfect man and give his life as an atonement (literally, "covering") for Adam's sin which plunged mankind into suffering and death. That is all that was required---perfect life for perfect life. Adam = perfect man; Jesus (or other angelic being) = perfect man on earth

Jesus was not God in the flesh, and Philippians doesn't say that, and neither does John 1:14.

Many versions put Phil.2:6 like this: "Who, although he existed in the form of God [spirit], did NOT regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." And "grasped" is understood by scholars to mean taking something that you didn't have before. (NASB)

Jesus was OBEDIENT to the Father, to the point of death. That's what Phil.2:8 means, not obedient to the idea of death. You've got it twisted around. The NASB renders verse 8 like this: "Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient TO THE POINT OF DEATH, even death on a cross." See the difference?

Other heavenly beings undoubtedly have acted like the Father, but Jesus was special because he was the very first thing ever created by Jehovah, and Jesus lived with the Father longer than any other being. He is the unique Son. He probably volunteered to come down here. He had that much love for mankind.

You are teaching bad Christian theology. You are minimizing what Jesus accomplished, saying that he would have done it no matter what. All the tears and spilt blood were just dramatic effects, right? It was all just a charade?

You say that your theology offers "eternal salvation." That's all. You did not elaborate on that in the slightest. We also offer eternal salvation, but we will tell you exactly how we will spend eternity. Can you do that? What will you be doing for an eternity? Don't just say "we'll be with God." What will you actually DO? Your eternal scenario is vague and mindless. JWs' outlook is clear and purposeful. Check out the thread "Paradise on Earth."

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to Justin108]

Wait a minute, are we gonna sit here and argue over whether or not God is morally perfect and therefore incapable of sin?

[Justin108]

[Replying to Justin108]

Wait a minute, are we gonna sit here and argue over whether or not God is morally perfect and therefore incapable of sin?

No I am asking whether only God is without sin. Your original premise was...

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin

Now please prove that only God can live a life on earth without sin. How do you know that someone else (Jesus) could not live a life without sin as well?

[otseng]

I am just merely going after the head of the snake.

Moderator Comment

It is not civil to refer to other groups as a head of a snake.

Please review the Rules.


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[For_The_Kingdom]

No I am asking whether only God is without sin. Your original premise was...

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin

Now please prove that only God can live a life on earth without sin. How do you know that someone else (Jesus) could not live a life without sin as well?

That is my point, Jesus is God and therefore he can/did live a life without sin, just as the Father would do.

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin
2. Jesus lived life on earth without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

There is just no Scriptural/Biblical denial of #1 and #2...so #3 follows logically. No way out.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Of course he could have sinned!

Then Jesus himself would have been in need of a Savior. How ironic would that be.

Otherwise his remaining faithful wouldn't have meant a thing!

The Father remains faithful, too. Doesn't he?

If he had given in, God (the Father) would have had to turn to another angelic person to come to the earth and become a perfect man and give his life as an atonement (literally, "covering") for Adam's sin which plunged mankind into suffering and death. That is all that was required---perfect life for perfect life. Adam = perfect man; Jesus (or other angelic being) = perfect man on earth

So, if the exact representation of the Father (Heb 1:3) cannot get the job done, then what would lesser angelic beings be able to do? Even Jehovah's Witnesses boast about Jesus about how "God gave up his very best for us". Well, if the very best can't get the job done, then what chance do you think the "lesser of the best" angels would have?

Jesus was not God in the flesh, and Philippians doesn't say that

Many versions put Phil.2:6 like this: "Who, although he existed in the form of God [spirit], did NOT regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." And "grasped" is understood by scholars to mean taking something that you didn't have before. (NASB)

Reading comprehension. What does "although" mean? It means "in spite of"..so, "in spite the fact that he (Jesus) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped."

The only question is then about whether or not "grasped" is what you claim scholars make it out to be. The loose definition of "grasp" means "to seize or hold firmly to; try to seize hold of".


So, "In spite of the fact that Jesus was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to hold on to".

So what does "being in the form of God" have to do with being "equal with God"? That is the question.

Jesus was OBEDIENT to the Father, to the point of death. That's what Phil.2:8 means, not obedient to the idea of death. You've got it twisted around. The NASB renders verse 8 like this: "Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient TO THE POINT OF DEATH, even death on a cross." See the difference?

No, I don't see the difference.

Other heavenly beings undoubtedly have acted like the Father, but Jesus was special because he was the very first thing ever created by Jehovah, and Jesus lived with the Father longer than any other being.

What? What does who was created first have to do with moral benevolency? Joseph wasn't the first born of Jacob, but his father favored him more and God favored him over his brothers. David wasn't the first son of Jesse, in fact, he was the youngest, and God choose him over his brothers.

All of that "first born", "Jesus was the very first thing created by God" stuff is not only a faulty spin on the Scriptures, but it is just completely unBiblical in the first place, because contrary to Watch Tower theology, Jesus was NOT created, and you can tout your Col 1:15-17 scripture all you want, because that is a faulty interpretation by Jehovah's Witnesses and if it weren't, the Watch Tower wouldn't have to modify their NWT (NWT) to get it to say what they want it to say.

He is the unique Son. He probably volunteered to come down here. He had that much love for mankind.

Finally agree on something.

You are teaching bad Christian theology. You are minimizing what Jesus accomplished, saying that he would have done it no matter what. All the tears and spilt blood were just dramatic effects, right? It was all just a charade?

No, it was real. God suffered for you. You owe him.

You say that your theology offers "eternal salvation." That's all. You did not elaborate on that in the slightest. We also offer eternal salvation, but we will tell you exactly how we will spend eternity. Can you do that? What will you be doing for an eternity? Don't just say "we'll be with God." What will you actually DO? Your eternal scenario is vague and mindless. JWs' outlook is clear and purposeful. Check out the thread "Paradise on Earth."

Um, Scripture doesn't even tell us what we will "do" on Paradise Earth. Scripture says we will spend Eternity with God. It doesn't give us the itinerary. So let me guess, Scripture doesn't say, but the Watch Tower certainly "knows", huh?

Just bad theology all the way around. SMH.

[Justin108]

No I am asking whether only God is without sin. Your original premise was...

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin

Now please prove that only God can live a life on earth without sin. How do you know that someone else (Jesus) could not live a life without sin as well?

That is my point, Jesus is God...

Prove it

Prove it

[onewithhim]

No I am asking whether only God is without sin. Your original premise was...

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin

Now please prove that only God can live a life on earth without sin. How do you know that someone else (Jesus) could not live a life without sin as well?

That is my point, Jesus is God and therefore he can/did live a life without sin, just as the Father would do.

1. Only God can live life on earth without sin
2. Jesus lived life on earth without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

There is just no Scriptural/Biblical denial of #1 and #2...so #3 follows logically. No way out.

Yes there are Scriptural denials of #1!! That is preposterous. The point that there was another man who lived on the earth that COULD HAVE lived without sin---Adam---has been brought up, but rejected by you. The only reason that he introduced sin and death into the world was because he chose to disobey God. He COULD HAVE lived without disobeying. It was not God's plan that Adam would sin. Jesus was a perfect man, just like Adam had been, and he proved that a perfect human COULD live on earth without sinning. YOU ARE WRONG.

Therefore, #3 is also denied. There IS big-time "way out"!! You can't win arguments by IGNORING what other people post!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 26 by For_The_Kingdom]

Oh yes, the Bible does tell us what we will do in paradise on Earth.

1) Peaceful life with animals: "The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little boy will lead them....They will not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9. NASB)

2) Build our own houses: "They will build houses and inhabit them; they will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They will not build and another inhabit, they will not plant and another eat....They will not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity; for they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, and their descendants with them." (Isaiah 65:21-23, NASB)

3) Lush surroundings: "The wilderness and the desert will be glad, and the Arabah will rejoice and blossom; like the crocus it will blossom profusely." (Isaiah 35:1,2)

4) Enjoy perfect health; infirmities gone: "Then the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. The lame will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute will shout for joy." (Isaiah 35:5,6)

5) Live in peace and comfort: "Each of them will sit under his vine and under his fig tree, with no one to make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken." (Micah 4:4, NASB)

6) Plenty of good things to eat: "The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples...A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined, aged wine." (Isaiah 25:6, NASB) "There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow." "The earth will certainly give its produce; God, our God, will bless us." (Psalm 72:16; 67:6)


These are just part of the blessings. Think what we can do in an environment like that![/b]