What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again&

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dio9
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What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again&

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Post by dio9 »

According to the garden story; in the beginning man is in a state of oneness with all things like a child , no self-consciousness , no intellectualizing, no reflection , just responding naturally to it all part of nature, not aware of any distance or separateness between himself and nature.
This primordial state is changed when he makes a conscious decision breaking the command not to eat the forbidden fruit, he consciously commits act of disobedience . Which brings him to a consciousness of himself as an outsider out of place and ashamed separate from God , Eve , all the animals, and the earth. This is what Christian theology calls The Fall of Man . When he leaves he can never return to the same garden . Like the sages say "you can't step in the same river twice". He was a true child but can only return as a restored child. Never the less the oneness is the same for both.

This was the beginning of History as western civilization knows it, history has been a movement of return to what can not be regained. This is the Messianic hope deep within us all, a return to Eden after a history of alienation the same space but different . The world the prophets and Jesus spoke of as the one in the fullness of time where Adam has restored himself in mind and heart intellectually and heartisticly based on fulfillment of the subconscious remembrance of our common original subconscious oneness as it was in the beginning again . This is what it means to be born again; Jesus was calling for a return to the oneness.

This is my pop psych understanding of what he meant . To be born again means not back to the original Eden but to a consciously restored Eden .

For discussion : What do you think to be born again means.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

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Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

dio9 wrote: According to the garden story; in the beginning man is in a state of oneness with all things like a child , no self-consciousness , no intellectualizing, no reflection , just responding naturally to it all part of nature, not aware of any distance or separateness between himself and nature.
This primordial state is changed when he makes a conscious decision breaking the command not to eat the forbidden fruit, he consciously commits act of disobedience . Which brings him to a consciousness of himself as an outsider out of place and ashamed separate from God , Eve , all the animals, and the earth. This is what Christian theology calls The Fall of Man . When he leaves he can never return to the same garden . Like the sages say "you can't step in the same river twice". He was a true child but can only return as a restored child. Never the less the oneness is the same for both.


This was the beginning of History as western civilization knows it, history has been a movement of return to what can not be regained. This is the Messianic hope deep within us all, a return to Eden after a history of alienation the same space but different . The world the prophets and Jesus spoke of as the one in the fullness of time where Adam has restored himself in mind and heart intellectually and heartisticly based on fulfillment of the subconscious remembrance of our common original subconscious oneness as it was in the beginning again . This is what it means to be born again; Jesus was calling for a return to the oneness.

This is my pop psych understanding of what he meant . To be born again means not back to the original Eden but to a consciously restored Eden .

For discussion : What do you think to be born again means.


This is apparently one of the the motivations behind the Christian notion that blind faith is a good thing, and abject gullibility is desirable. Ignorance is is the perfect holy state, it would seem, and to be a simpleton is to be closer to God. Which makes sense, because it's when Christians (or anyone) sits down and actually consider just how silly some of the things Christians claim to believe in are, that is when they begin to get into trouble. It's those darned troublesome thoughts that can be the problem. So the best strategy seems to be to remain as childlike as possible, because an empty mind is an empty vessel.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

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Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 2 by Tired of the Nonsense]

The question is : What does born again mean? If you don't want to discuss this psychological theological question fine but if all you can do is knock God talk, we all know you piss on the idea.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

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Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 2 by Tired of the Nonsense]

The question is : What does born again mean? If you don't want to discuss this psychological theological question fine but if all you can do is knock God talk, we all know you piss on the idea.
I am just saying that apparently to be one with God it to attempt to remain as simple and ignorant, as close to the state that existed before the eating of the fruit of knowledge, as possible.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense on Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #5

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 4 by Tired of the Nonsense]

No that's not the idea I am trying to say. Let me try to explain .
(although I think I'm wasting my time with you , sorry please don't be offended but from what I've read in your posts , I think you are a Troll) any way Do you feel separated from God and nature? If not congratulations you are a winner.

The idea here is a return from separation. Adam is separated from nature natures law and himself because of the way he thinks . Not thinking , there is a place for thinking but there is a problem with wrong thinking. I'm talking about truth here. Do you know what that is? My opinion is its the gut feeling intuition not intellectualization . So according to the story , In the beginning ( I use Adam as a metaphor for human beings, male and female) Adam or pre-Adam was not self conscious like a child not shameful fearful greedy and so on . What Jesus was saying is we who lost our childhood state of innocent consciousness need to as intelligent mature adults , who have been through the mill of life need to become, not mindless children but mindful adult children, born again as an adult child as pure as a newborn .

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #6

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to post 5 by dio9]
dio9 wrote: No that's not the idea I am trying to say. Let me try to explain .
(although I think I'm wasting my time with you , sorry please don't be offended but from what I've read in your posts , I think you are a Troll) any way Do you feel separated from God and nature? If not congratulations you are a winner.
I don't feel separated from nature at all. I feel separated from God the same way I feel separated from Santa Claus. That's the most accurate way I can describe it.
dio9 wrote: The idea here is a return from separation. Adam is separated from nature natures law and himself because of the way he thinks . Not thinking , there is a place for thinking but there is a problem with wrong thinking. I'm talking about truth here. Do you know what that is? My opinion is its the gut feeling intuition not intellectualization .
Truth in "your opinion" is not about the facts or the evidence. Facts and evidence only clutter up the thought processes and get in the way. The best path to truth, in "your opinion," comes from your "gut feelings." In other words the best path to truth is to make it up and declare it to be true because you feel it in your gut. Is that about right?
dio9 wrote: So according to the story , In the beginning ( I use Adam as a metaphor for human beings, male and female) Adam or pre-Adam was not self conscious like a child not shameful fearful greedy and so on . What Jesus was saying is we who lost our childhood state of innocent consciousness need to as intelligent mature adults , who have been through the mill of life need to become, not mindless children but mindful adult children, born again as an adult child as pure as a newborn .
In other words, born without the sin of having been born. Because of course we were all once newborn and yet we are all born into sin. And we lose our shamelessness by being told that our naked bodies and our natural bodily functions are "sinful" and we should feel shame over them. So we grow up in a state of self conscious repression. I was raised by Christians and I must say that Christians are not qualified to be giving instructions to anyone about learning to be in a state of innocent self consciousness.

Also, you are expounding on your Christian beliefs. How could that possibly be a "waste of time?" Even if I am just a troll myself, there are others watching.
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Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

I think that either Jesus was using "born again" as a metaphor for becoming a "adopted" child of God; as in being accepted by him as potentially joining him in heaven as a part of his spirt family.


Further reading: What Does It Mean to Be Born Again?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... orn-again/


Here is my previous post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p850455
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #8

Post by dio9 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by dio9]

I think that either Jesus was using "born again" as a metaphor for becoming a "adopted" child of God; as in being accepted by him as potentially joining him in heaven as a part of his spirt family.


Further reading: What Does It Mean to Be Born Again?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... orn-again/


Here is my previous post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 455#850455
what exactly does it mean to be an adopted child of God.? What I this thread is about is how to be free of alienation caused by shame greed covetousness , the no no's in the ten commandments, free from the fears of poverty sickness old age and death that separate us from our originally born nature.
Born again means freedom from all the neuroses' wrong thinking and social pressures that separate us from each other .

Religion and psychoanalysis have the same goal, the word religion means re-connect, look it up, to become conscious of God and conscious of our the subconscious. Born again means greater consciousness. To the Pharisee one thing to expand Jesus's revealed consciousness of God. To psychoanalysis expand conscious into subconscious . Conscious flows into the subconscious as the Pharisee flows into God. The goal is the same consciousness movement of heart and mind through correct thinking and practice.

consciousness of of our subconscious has the same effect as consciousness of God.

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 8 by dio9]


I'm sorry, I thought that the OP was asking what people belief Jesus meant. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe it means to be "Born again means freedom from all the neuroses' wrong thinking and social pressures that separate us from each other "

I thought you were asking for peoples opinions even if they differ from your own.

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What did Jesus mean saying " you must be born again

Post #10

Post by ttruscott »

dio9 wrote: According to the garden story; in the beginning man is in a state of oneness with all things like a child , no self-consciousness , no intellectualizing, no reflection , just responding naturally to it all part of nature, not aware of any distance or separateness between himself and nature.
Then there is no meaning in the story that he looked at all the animals and gave them different names but could find no helpmeet among them...

He was obviously seeing a difference between himself and his needs and them and did this before he ate.
For discussion : What do you think to be born again means.

To be reborn is to come out from under the judgements against sin and to be changed in heart and mind so that the person is cured of the enslaving addiction to evil though they are still attracted to the pleasures and profits of sin, not yet having been trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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