The Exodus Syndrome

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ThePainefulTruth
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The Exodus Syndrome

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Post by ThePainefulTruth »

In politics, religion and even science, "finding" or manufacturing evidence to support one's viewpoint, and rationalizing it as the ultimate righteousness of one's cause, is an example of The Exodus Syndrome (TES). To use the Exodus as an example, "finding" Egyptian chariots, weapons and skeletons at the bottom of the Red Sea, that aren't there, is justified by the "undeniable truth" that the Bible is God's revealed word. This is also known as the MSU (making *stuff* up) and Ad Hoc logical fallacies, but TES brings to mind a more immediately intuitive name for the issue than the colloquial MSU, or the technical Latin, translation needed, terminology.

There are of course myriad examples of TES (e.g. finding the Ark, Climategate, some of George Washington's religious letters), so please feel free to offer other such instances you can think of which fit the mold, or ones you're using yourself which others might fault you for employing TES. I of course, being an advocate for the pursuit of Truth, am perfectly sin free in this regard. O:)

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #21

Post by jester32 »

[Replying to post 18 by ThePainefulTruth]

Chapter 6 of my book shows that the conquest took place during the MB IIB. In fact, it is the only archaeological age that gives evidence that the conquest happened. All nine of the located cities that the Bible says were destroyed or captured during the conquest were destroyed or captured during the MB IIB. This has been documented by David Rohl in his books, including A Test of Time and From Eden to Exile He is an Egyptologist with the proper credentials to be taken seriously by the academic community.

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #22

Post by Kenisaw »

jester32 wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Kenisaw]

There is plenty of evidence for the Israelites in Canaan from 1407 B.C. onwards. I suggest you read Chapter 6 of my book at: http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c62dc8_68 ... efb3da.pdf

I think you would be amazed at the evidence if you did. It would not take long to read it. And that chapter gives only an overview of the evidence. David Rohl has written many books that give solid evidence for the Bible.
The Amarna letters are not good supporting evidence for you. Just the opposite I'm afraid. They include diplomatic correspondence to leaders throughout the Middle East/Turkey/Greece. One of the great confirmations of the Egyptian calendar is how they can tie Egyptian time periods with Babylonian and Hittite and Hellenistic time periods.

You'd have to rewrite the calendar for all kingdoms and civilizations throughout that whole part of the world if you change the Egyptian calendar.

And, of course, there is still the very glaring problem of zero evidence or data for the massive movement of slaves from Egypt to the east.

The Exodus simply didn't happen.

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ThePainefulTruth
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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #23

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

Kenisaw wrote:
jester32 wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Kenisaw]

There is plenty of evidence for the Israelites in Canaan from 1407 B.C. onwards. I suggest you read Chapter 6 of my book at: http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c62dc8_68 ... efb3da.pdf

I think you would be amazed at the evidence if you did. It would not take long to read it. And that chapter gives only an overview of the evidence. David Rohl has written many books that give solid evidence for the Bible.
The Amarna letters are not good supporting evidence for you. Just the opposite I'm afraid. They include diplomatic correspondence to leaders throughout the Middle East/Turkey/Greece. One of the great confirmations of the Egyptian calendar is how they can tie Egyptian time periods with Babylonian and Hittite and Hellenistic time periods.

You'd have to rewrite the calendar for all kingdoms and civilizations throughout that whole part of the world if you change the Egyptian calendar.

And, of course, there is still the very glaring problem of zero evidence or data for the massive movement of slaves from Egypt to the east.

The Exodus simply didn't happen.
Yes, there is no evidence that there was a contemporary conquest of Canaan. In fact almost everything indicates a drawn out occupation. That said, I think it likely that there was a gradual migration of a people indigenous to the Levant, to Egypt, and a return some generations later.

A likely scenario :study: : famine in the Levant drives people to Egypt with it's dependable Nile water and fertility. Egypt says, "fine, you're welcome to stay....and work on a few small building projects we're working on." Desperate, they agree. Then later, news starts coming in that things back home are once again milk and honey. After a few failed attempts, a good sized desperate contingent with their backs to the Red Sea, is able to defeat Pharaoh's follow-on thugs. They set up a temporary flotilla of boats on which they and some follow on "escapees" are ferried across. All this emboldens further emigration to the east of Egypt, setting up a steady stream of emigres to conquer what was to become Israel. O:)

One thing puts the lie to the traditional Exodus story. With all of this miraculous, awe-inspiring divine intervention with the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea AND BEING LED BY THE EVER-PRESENT PILLAR OF CLOUD AND FIRE--in a matter of days, they make a golden calf and begin worshiping it, ostensibly in full view of said pillar. Golden Calf B S

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #24

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 23 by ThePainefulTruth]
One thing puts the lie to the traditional Exodus story
The one thing that does it for me in particular, is the complete absence of any mention, in the archaeological record of surrounding nations, of a famine in Egypt and subsequent exodus of the local slave population.
Think about it. We're told that the plagues basically wipe out Egypt's food supplies (such as the cows being killed several times over, figure that one out!), so Egypt's citizens should have been in a panic. They should have been desperate to buy food from elsewhere.
What I would expect to see is an influx of Egyptian gold and treasures in a short period of time in surrounding nations. The Egyptians would have been desperate to not starve to death, so they would have been willing to pay over the nose.
-in a matter of days, they make a golden calf and begin worshiping it, ostensibly in full view of said pillar
Don't forget - Aaron, brother of Moses, was the one who made the calf...and yet he isn't killed when Moses comes down the mountain.
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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #25

Post by Kenisaw »

[Replying to post 23 by ThePainefulTruth]

Not a likely scenario I'm afraid. There's evidence that workers on projects were paid labor, and ate quite well. There's no evidence that a sudden, massive exit of workers ever hit the Egyptian economy. I don't know where the tale comes from exactly, but it's just a tale.

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #26

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 23 by ThePainefulTruth]
One thing puts the lie to the traditional Exodus story
The one thing that does it for me in particular, is the complete absence of any mention, in the archaeological record of surrounding nations, of a famine in Egypt and subsequent exodus of the local slave population.
Think about it. We're told that the plagues basically wipe out Egypt's food supplies (such as the cows being killed several times over, figure that one out!), so Egypt's citizens should have been in a panic. They should have been desperate to buy food from elsewhere.
What I would expect to see is an influx of Egyptian gold and treasures in a short period of time in surrounding nations. The Egyptians would have been desperate to not starve to death, so they would have been willing to pay over the nose.
-in a matter of days, they make a golden calf and begin worshiping it, ostensibly in full view of said pillar
Don't forget - Aaron, brother of Moses, was the one who made the calf...and yet he isn't killed when Moses comes down the mountain.
Of course not, he was Moses' brother. What better evidence could we have that an elite double-standard was in play--something you'd think no just God would put up with. But that's irrelevant given the people's disregard of the pillar while worshiping the golden calf. The whole thing is irrational.
[Replying to post 23 by ThePainefulTruth]

Not a likely scenario I'm afraid. There's evidence that workers on projects were paid labor, and ate quite well. There's no evidence that a sudden, massive exit of workers ever hit the Egyptian economy. I don't know where the tale comes from exactly, but it's just a tale.


Infinitely more likely than the supernatural events portrayed. And I just said it was likely, meaning, at least, possible--which the miracles weren't. I never said they weren't paid, at least during some of their time there, and I thought I make it pretty clear I was suggesting something less than a "mass exit".

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #27

Post by jester32 »

[Replying to post 22 by Kenisaw]

There is plenty of evidence for the Israelites in Canaan from 1407 B.C. onwards. I suggest you read Chapter 6 of my book at: http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c62dc8_68 ... efb3da.pdf

I think you would be amazed at the evidence if you did. It would not take long to read it. And that chapter gives only an overview of the evidence. David Rohl has written many books that give solid evidence for the Bible.[/quote:d92cc9e418]

Your wrote: The Amarna letters are not good supporting evidence for you. Just the opposite I\'m afraid. They include diplomatic correspondence to leaders throughout the Middle East/Turkey/Greece. One of the great confirmations of the Egyptian calendar is how they can tie Egyptian time periods with Babylonian and Hittite and Hellenistic time periods.

My Response: The Amarna letters do support the lowering of Egyptian chronology by up to 350 years. There is excellent evidence from Babylonian chronology that the Egyptian chronology should be thus lowered. This includes lunar dating, eclipse dating, and Sothic dating. These things rule out the standard Egyptian chronology.

Your wrote: You\'d have to rewrite the calendar for all kingdoms and civilizations throughout that whole part of the world if you change the Egyptian calendar.

My Response: There is pottery evidence from the ancient Near East that supports lowering the Greek Dark Age by about 250 years. This is documented by Peter James in Centuries of Darkness.

You wrote: And, of course, there is still the very glaring problem of zero evidence or data for the massive movement of slaves from Egypt to the east.

My Response: The Hebrew Old Testament, when properly translated, states that there were only about 20,000 Israelites during the Exodus. There is actually solid evidence for the conquest and for the existence of the Israelites during the period of the Judges. Most of these claims are documented in Chapter 7 at: http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c62dc8_39 ... 5c24e7.pdf

You wrote: The Exodus simply didn\'t happen.

My Response: The evidence shows otherwise.

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #28

Post by H.sapiens »

jester32 wrote: My Response: The evidence shows otherwise.
Then please explain the absence of all archaeological evidence of the actual exodus ... where are the burials, the kitchen middens, the fire pits, etc.?

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #29

Post by Kenisaw »

jester32 wrote: I think you would be amazed at the evidence if you did. It would not take long to read it. And that chapter gives only an overview of the evidence. David Rohl has written many books that give solid evidence for the Bible.
I read enough of it to know it's fringe thinking, nothing more than an attempt to mold Bible timelines to actual reality.
My Response: The Amarna letters do support the lowering of Egyptian chronology by up to 350 years. There is excellent evidence from Babylonian chronology that the Egyptian chronology should be thus lowered. This includes lunar dating, eclipse dating, and Sothic dating. These things rule out the standard Egyptian chronology.
Grimal wrote that the Sothic ivory tablet is useless chronologically.

As already stated, the letters do not support the revised Egyptian calendar. You'd have to revise all time lines in the ancient world (not to mention explain why carbon dating is off). If you want to continue to live this fantasy, be my guest. There's a reason why scholars have debunked the whole thing and moved on...

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Re: The Exodus Syndrome

Post #30

Post by jester32 »

[Replying to post 28 by H.sapiens]

Tel El-daba had an Asiatic (Hebrew) population of slaves who left in mass near the end of the Thirteenth Dynasty. There were even mass graves evidencing rapid burial after the death of the firstborn. Don Patton has shown that there is physical evidence for the Israelites in Canaan at the time of Joshua and then the judges. This is documented at:

My book documents that Mt. Sinai was Mt. Bedr not the Mt. Sinai on the Sinai peninsula. Perhaps archaeologists have looked for the fire pits and other physical evidence in the wrong location. There is also proof that the conquest happened near the end of the MB IIB Period.

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