Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?
Moderator: Moderators
Post #3
RESPONSE: Excellent! As best I can tell, you are absolutely correct.tigger2 wrote: I believe it was in 381 A.D. at The First Council of Constantinople. Although it was officially accepted at this time, many refused to accept it.
Follow-on question, when was Jesus first claimed to be divine himself in addition to being the Messiah? What effect did this change have on the early Christians?
Post #4
The Church officially accepted Jesus as equally God in 325 A.D.
Many disagreed with the Emperor-enforced decision, but the minority Trinitarians eventually won out with the power of the Roman Emperor Constantine (who was later baptized as a non-Trinitarian) and Emperor Theodosius who later enforced the 381 Council.
Many disagreed with the Emperor-enforced decision, but the minority Trinitarians eventually won out with the power of the Roman Emperor Constantine (who was later baptized as a non-Trinitarian) and Emperor Theodosius who later enforced the 381 Council.
When did Jesus become divine?
Post #5You are correct that the divinity of Christ became an official teaching in 325 at the Council of Nicea. (The Pope did not attend this council, but Constantine, ehe Emperor did.)
Reviewing a short history of the claimed divinity of Christ:
1. First of all, there in nothing in the Old Testament saying that the "messiah" was divine.
2. After Jesus, death, according to the Acts of the Apostles, the Christian-Jerusalem community remained an observant Jewish sect, one of a number of sects within Judaism. It was known as "The Way" of "the Nazarenes."
3. It most important law continued to be the Jewish Shema "Hear O Isreal. The Lord is One."
4. The Gospels of Mark (c. 70 AD) and Matthew and Luke (c. 80 AD). Do not claim divinity for Jesus (although some try to read that into them.
5. It is unclear how the change came about, but around 85 AD, the belief that Jesus too was divine developed. This, of course, contradicted the scriptures and Jewish beliefs.
.
Reviewing a short history of the claimed divinity of Christ:
1. First of all, there in nothing in the Old Testament saying that the "messiah" was divine.
2. After Jesus, death, according to the Acts of the Apostles, the Christian-Jerusalem community remained an observant Jewish sect, one of a number of sects within Judaism. It was known as "The Way" of "the Nazarenes."
3. It most important law continued to be the Jewish Shema "Hear O Isreal. The Lord is One."
4. The Gospels of Mark (c. 70 AD) and Matthew and Luke (c. 80 AD). Do not claim divinity for Jesus (although some try to read that into them.
5. It is unclear how the change came about, but around 85 AD, the belief that Jesus too was divine developed. This, of course, contradicted the scriptures and Jewish beliefs.
.
Last edited by polonius on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
One God, two persons?
Post #6https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim
“The Birkat ha-Minim (Hebrew ברכת ×”×ž×™× ×™×� "Blessing on the heretics") is a Jewish curse on heretics (minim). Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion.[1] It is the 12th of the Eighteen Benedictions or Amidah.
The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.�
The Gospel of John, written about 95 AD, mentions the exclusion of the Christians from the Jewish synagogues.
John introduced the seven “I am� sayings of Jesus not reported in the first three gospels and has a scene in which the Apostle Thomas makes the statement about Jesus “My lord, and My God.�
At this point, since the Jews believed the Shema (even Christ quotes it in one of the gospels), a “parting of the ways� came about, and Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism
“Binitarianism is a Christian theology of two persons, personas, or two aspects in one substance/Divinity (or God). Classically, binitarianism is understood as a form of monotheism — that is, that God is absolutely one being; and yet with binitarianism there is a "twoness" in God, which means one God family. The other common forms of monotheism are "unitarianism", a belief in one God with one person, and "trinitarianism", a belief in one God with three persons.�
While many think the split was between Jewish monotheism and Christianity trinitarianism at the 325 Coundil of Nicea, most of those attending believed in one God (Arians) or binitarianism. Trinitarianism developed later.
“The Birkat ha-Minim (Hebrew ברכת ×”×ž×™× ×™×� "Blessing on the heretics") is a Jewish curse on heretics (minim). Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion.[1] It is the 12th of the Eighteen Benedictions or Amidah.
The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.�
The Gospel of John, written about 95 AD, mentions the exclusion of the Christians from the Jewish synagogues.
John introduced the seven “I am� sayings of Jesus not reported in the first three gospels and has a scene in which the Apostle Thomas makes the statement about Jesus “My lord, and My God.�
At this point, since the Jews believed the Shema (even Christ quotes it in one of the gospels), a “parting of the ways� came about, and Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism
“Binitarianism is a Christian theology of two persons, personas, or two aspects in one substance/Divinity (or God). Classically, binitarianism is understood as a form of monotheism — that is, that God is absolutely one being; and yet with binitarianism there is a "twoness" in God, which means one God family. The other common forms of monotheism are "unitarianism", a belief in one God with one person, and "trinitarianism", a belief in one God with three persons.�
While many think the split was between Jewish monotheism and Christianity trinitarianism at the 325 Coundil of Nicea, most of those attending believed in one God (Arians) or binitarianism. Trinitarianism developed later.
Post #7
Like the doctrine of the divinity of Christ, this doctrine of the divinity of the Spirit seems to have developed organically in the church. It is hard to say when specifically the doctrine evolved. In a sense it was declared an official doctrine at the First Council of Constantinople (381). However, it was already a well developed doctrine that was accepted by the overwhelming majority of the church. The divinity of Christ was the main debate, so the divinity of the Spirit was written about less. The general sense on all sides seems to have been that if the divinity of Christ was accepted then the divinity of the Spirit was a forgone conclusion.
In the fourth chapter of his Epistle to Trallians Ignatius (35 – 107 AD) wrote in condemnation of heretics, writing, “They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.�
Clement of Alexandria (153–217 AD) wrote in The Instructor, “Thus also we who are baptized, having wiped off the sins which obscure the light of the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light, by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above�
In Against Hermogenes, Tertullian (145-220 AD) wrote, “If the Holy Ghost took upon Himself so great a concern for our instruction, that we might know from what everything was produced…�
Clement plainly called Spirit “Divine,� – that is, God. And Tertullian described the Spirit as someone separate from the father. None of these use the modern phrase of “the Spirit is God,� but I don’t think a reasonable person can deny that they are working from that belief.
As a side note, Constantine had nothing to do with developing the doctrine of the divinity of Christ or the Spirit. He did call the Council of Nicaea and provided means for people to get there. He spoke at the council, but did not appear to add anything of substance to the debates. He was clearly out of his depth in that council, and stopped attending entirely half-way through. The overwhelming majority at the Council of Nicaea, and among Christians in general at that time, believed in the divinity of Christ. Constantine enforced the decision of the council by exiling Arius, but it does not appear that he play any significant part in them coming to that conclusion.
In the fourth chapter of his Epistle to Trallians Ignatius (35 – 107 AD) wrote in condemnation of heretics, writing, “They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.�
Clement of Alexandria (153–217 AD) wrote in The Instructor, “Thus also we who are baptized, having wiped off the sins which obscure the light of the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light, by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above�
In Against Hermogenes, Tertullian (145-220 AD) wrote, “If the Holy Ghost took upon Himself so great a concern for our instruction, that we might know from what everything was produced…�
Clement plainly called Spirit “Divine,� – that is, God. And Tertullian described the Spirit as someone separate from the father. None of these use the modern phrase of “the Spirit is God,� but I don’t think a reasonable person can deny that they are working from that belief.
As a side note, Constantine had nothing to do with developing the doctrine of the divinity of Christ or the Spirit. He did call the Council of Nicaea and provided means for people to get there. He spoke at the council, but did not appear to add anything of substance to the debates. He was clearly out of his depth in that council, and stopped attending entirely half-way through. The overwhelming majority at the Council of Nicaea, and among Christians in general at that time, believed in the divinity of Christ. Constantine enforced the decision of the council by exiling Arius, but it does not appear that he play any significant part in them coming to that conclusion.
Last edited by bjs on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Semi-Arians in the Church
Post #8https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Arianism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Semi-Arianism was a position regarding the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God, adopted by some 4th century Christians. Though the doctrine modified the teachings of Arianism, it still rejected the doctrine that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same substance, or con-substantial, and was therefore considered to be heretical by many contemporary Christians."
"The West was at peace under Valentinian I, so the Semi-Arians sent envoys to that emperor and to the pope to get help. Pope Liberius refused to see them until they presented him with a confession of faith which included the Nicene formula. He seems to have been unaware that the party now rejected the divinity of the Holy Ghost; but this was perhaps not true of the envoys Eustathius and Silvanus. "
"In 381 the First Council of Constantinople was also called in order to attempt to deal with the binitarians who were mainly Semi-Arians then. However, as the Trinity was officially finalized at this time, the offended binitarians walked out."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Semi-Arianism was a position regarding the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God, adopted by some 4th century Christians. Though the doctrine modified the teachings of Arianism, it still rejected the doctrine that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same substance, or con-substantial, and was therefore considered to be heretical by many contemporary Christians."
"The West was at peace under Valentinian I, so the Semi-Arians sent envoys to that emperor and to the pope to get help. Pope Liberius refused to see them until they presented him with a confession of faith which included the Nicene formula. He seems to have been unaware that the party now rejected the divinity of the Holy Ghost; but this was perhaps not true of the envoys Eustathius and Silvanus. "
"In 381 the First Council of Constantinople was also called in order to attempt to deal with the binitarians who were mainly Semi-Arians then. However, as the Trinity was officially finalized at this time, the offended binitarians walked out."
Re: Semi-Arians in the Church
Post #9[Replying to polonius.advice]
I am not completely sure what your point is here.
If you are saying that there have been those who rejected the divinity of the Spirit, then yes that is true. Throughout Christian history there have always been those who reject the divinity of the Holy Spirit/Christ. This has always remained a fringe or minority opinion.
The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.
There have always been, and still are, those who disagree with that conclusion. Such groups have never been able to gain enough support to seriously challenge more traditional orthodox Christianity. According to your highlighted section, at one point this movement was so insignificant that Valentinian I didn’t even know they were still around.
I am not completely sure what your point is here.
If you are saying that there have been those who rejected the divinity of the Spirit, then yes that is true. Throughout Christian history there have always been those who reject the divinity of the Holy Spirit/Christ. This has always remained a fringe or minority opinion.
The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.
There have always been, and still are, those who disagree with that conclusion. Such groups have never been able to gain enough support to seriously challenge more traditional orthodox Christianity. According to your highlighted section, at one point this movement was so insignificant that Valentinian I didn’t even know they were still around.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Re: Semi-Arians in the Church
Post #10bjs posted:bjs wrote: [Replying to polonius.advice]
I am not completely sure what your point is here.
If you are saying that there have been those who rejected the divinity of the Spirit, then yes that is true. Throughout Christian history there have always been those who reject the divinity of the Holy Spirit/Christ. This has always remained a fringe or minority opinion.
The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.
There have always been, and still are, those who disagree with that conclusion. Such groups have never been able to gain enough support to seriously challenge more traditional orthodox Christianity. According to your highlighted section, at one point this movement was so insignificant that Valentinian I didn’t even know they were still around.
QUESTION: What scripture supports this conclusion?The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.
