A changing timeless God?

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McCulloch
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A changing timeless God?

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #31

Post by JP Cusick »

Justin108 wrote: But you said that miracles are completely natural. How would faith influence the effect spit and mud had on someone's blindness?
Faith is natural too.

In fact faith is very very natural.

Faith is extremely natural.

The lack of faith is a defect.

To have no faith in not natural.

And faith does not mean just faith in God or faith in miracles.

As like people put their faith in cars as they drive and put their faith in other drivers too, and when one gets into an airplane they are putting faith in the pilot and in the manufacturer and to fly takes a lot of realistic faith, which is another reason why flying in an airplane is a type of miracle.

In the 1st century (long time ago) then putting a mud patch over a person's eye would be the same as today putting a medical patch over an eye to let the eye heal, see = Link HERE.
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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #32

Post by Justin108 »

JP Cusick wrote:
Justin108 wrote: But you said that miracles are completely natural. How would faith influence the effect spit and mud had on someone's blindness?
Faith is natural too.
Yes but faith turning spit and mud into a cure for blindness is not.
JP Cusick wrote: In fact faith is very very natural.

Faith is extremely natural.

The lack of faith is a defect.

To have no faith in not natural.

And faith does not mean just faith in God or faith in miracles.

As like people put their faith in cars as they drive and put their faith in other drivers too, and when one gets into an airplane they are putting faith in the pilot and in the manufacturer and to fly takes a lot of realistic faith, which is another reason why flying in an airplane is a type of miracle.
Did it feel good to get all of that off your chest? Can we get back to the question now? How is curing blindness with mud and spit natural?
JP Cusick wrote: In the 1st century (long time ago) then putting a mud patch over a person's eye would be the same as today putting a medical patch over an eye to let the eye heal, see = Link HERE.
Ok the thing is this guy that Jesus healed didn't just have an eye injury. This man was blind from birth. Can you perhaps show me a medical eye patch that can cure lifelong blindness?

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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #33

Post by JP Cusick »

Justin108 wrote:
JP Cusick wrote: Faith is natural too.
Yes but faith turning spit and mud into a cure for blindness is not.
You are just getting hung up again by your dictionary-Gods.

A mud-pack is a very ancient remedy for all sorts of human afflictions, and a mud pack can not get much more "natural" than that.

The word "blind" or blindness does not have to mean the same in the 1st century as it does now in the 21st because medicine is vastly different.

Even more importantly is that Jesus putting a patch of mud onto a person's eye or onto both eyes is not doing magic, because it is giving a realistic physical cure for the person as the miracle and it is not an act of magic.

Whatever was truly wrong with that person's vision is unknown, and why Jesus did that as the cure is also unknown, and how it worked or how well it worked is unknown.

And just for the record - the miracles in the Bible tell us NOTHING of real value because the Gospel message is not a message about miracles - the Gospel message is about morality and virtue, see here = The 7 instructions of Christ:
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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #34

Post by Justin108 »

JP Cusick wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
JP Cusick wrote: Faith is natural too.
Yes but faith turning spit and mud into a cure for blindness is not.
You are just getting hung up again by your dictionary-Gods.
I didn't even mention the dictionary. This is just your go-to approach to dismissing anyone who disagrees with you. Since I did not use or refer to the dictionary, can you perhaps explain what this has to do with anything?
JP Cusick wrote: A mud-pack is a very ancient remedy for all sorts of human afflictions, and a mud pack can not get much more "natural" than that.
What kind of mud pack can cure lifelong blindness?
JP Cusick wrote: The word "blind" or blindness does not have to mean the same in the 1st century as it does now in the 21st because medicine is vastly different.
Oh of course. You can't refute my arguments so you resort to just redefining everything as you please. Congratulations, JP. I have officially had enough of your bullshit. I won't be wasting any more time with you in this discussion or any other discussion. You are an utter waste of time.

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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #35

Post by JP Cusick »

Justin108 wrote: Congratulations, JP. I have officially had enough of your bull. I won't be wasting any more time with you in this discussion or any other discussion. You are an utter waste of time.
I thank you for the congratulation, and yes I deserve that.

But you are not free to go and you will continue discussions with me, as you do not have the power to do otherwise.

Even if you put me on ignore then that will not support your effort which will fail.

Real boundaries come from God, so without having real faith in God then can not have an effective boundary as you claim above.

And I know this might seem as if I am picking on Justy, but really I want to point out that the power of God means real personal power, and of course the failure means the absence of personal power too.
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Post #36

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Justin108 wrote: I have officially had enough of your bullshit. I won't be wasting any more time with you in this discussion or any other discussion. You are an utter waste of time.
:warning: Moderator Final Warning

You've had repeated warnings and acumulated long rap sheet. Your next infraction could well trigger suspension or banishment. Be advised.

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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #37

Post by William »

McCulloch wrote: Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?
There is no reason why GOD cannot exist in both/all situations.

Where there is consciousness, there is GOD.

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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #38

Post by Danmark »

Justin108 wrote:
JP Cusick wrote: The word "blind" or blindness does not have to mean the same in the 1st century as it does now in the 21st because medicine is vastly different.
Oh of course. You can't refute my arguments so you resort to just redefining everything as you please...
:D Exactly so. Redefining 'blindness' to mean 'not blindness' wins the Last Resort [non] Argument of the Year award for 2017.

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Post #39

Post by Willum »

Hey McC (et&al),
Isn't what you propose just the continuation of a pattern?

God is supposed to be on Mount Sinai,
We develop mountain-climbing equipment and find no God on Sinai.

So then...
God is supposed to be above the clouds,
and we develop air planes and find no God above the clouds.

So then...
God is supposed to be in space.
and we develop spaceships and as Yuri Gagarin said, "I see no God up here."

Isn't "time and space" just a progression of the same hidy-hole that God is supposed to be in? in this case beyond?

So, you have created two possible solutions, the only paradox is if you accept both. If you accept one or the other, you can reach conclusions.

Since separately, they both arrive at the same conclusion, why conflate them to arrive at another?

(Cool topic.)

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Re: A changing timeless God?

Post #40

Post by ttruscott »

McCulloch wrote: Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time;
GOD did not create time. Time is and with three Eternal people in the Trinity the space between thought and answer measures time...unless all three always think the same thought at the same time, a definition of their Unity I do not support. Time is nothing to be created; like math it just is and measures movement in thought or space or in decision making.
God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.
There is no logical reason to believe that because GOD didn't create time HE could not have created the universe within the time that was.

When it says GOD changes HIS mind or repents it is referring to the time to institute the change in HIS methodology that was planned from the first.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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