Jesus was not a Christian

[paarsurrey1]

Jesus was a Jew and he did not start a new religion called Christianity. Christianity was started by Paul and the Church. Right, please?
Regards

[William]

The character portrayed as Jesus is not shown to have called his followers 'Christians' - he called them 'Disciples'. He would not have referred to himself as 'Christ' as this is a Greek word, but it means 'the anointed one' which appears to be the word used to substitute 'Messiah' after the story became popular belief in the non Jewish realms.

It appears that Paul was the one who made the term an official one of the newly established organised religion called 'Christianity' and was a key player in the role of establishment...even more so than Peter, whom it is written was given the keys to the church...but the church was not at that time Christianity/Christendom.

Personally I think Christendom is the political creation of Rome, perhaps with Jewish influence (going by what Paul is reputed as saying) and of historical significance, it is clear that the political motivation was in opposition to the message of Jesus - Paul was the one Christians followed and Jesus was just the enticement.

Since then, things have really only become more and more a state of smoke and mirrors to confuse the gullible and allow for political manipulation to sufficiently bend the message to suit said agenda.

Indeed, how much of what is purportedly recorded from the mouth of Jesus as per the Bible, and how much was added or subtracted from that message is anyone's guess, but when it comes to a message of LOVE for fellow humans etc (which is attractive to most humans for that) and the oxymoron of the concept of eternal hell and damnation, such conflation of ideas having come from the same mind/mouth of one individual makes that individual appear to have been a sufferer of mental illness, such as is reminiscent of bi-polar, narcissism, and/or BPD - take your pick...and ostensibly accepted as normal by and large by those who also suffer from the same and thus can't tell the difference and uphold and defend the idea of a loving GOD who has a hell awaiting those who say otherwise.

This can be seen clearly in the most recent of events pertaining to an American TV evangelist advising President Trump that the use of nukes are a GOD ordained act of goodness against evil. Neither Evangelist nor president are able to be regarded as bastions of sanity.

Such is the curse of Christendom upon the Earth. Politically motivated insanity parading as perfectly normal. The masses have fallen for it, which goes to show the real state of the minds of the masses.


The mind boggles.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 11 by William]

You make a good point.
However, on the face of it, why wouldn't you call his followers "Christian," from simple language convention.

Then by the same token, look at other new-start leaders, was Mao a communist? No, he was the leader of Maoism. Just as Jesus would be the leader of Christianity.

I would say, he was a Christian, as he supported Christianity.

Obviously not Jewish as he dismissed various concepts holy to Judaism as no longer relevant.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 12 by Willum]

Did Jesus intend to start a new religion or establish the Torah promised land, promised to Abraham God's gift which Moses led them to Joshua fought for and David made a dominion. Jesus was about restoring the kingdom of David and establishing a new covenant not of Abraham , Moses or David but of Jesus the Messiah. Some call him a dreamer for having such thoughts but I believe he could have done it. Had he not been betrayed. Why is it so hard to believe such a covenant could happen? But yes the king was killed and no one could fill his shoes . Though they have tried. Christianity is a history of people, popes and patriarchs, trying to fill them.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 13 by dio9]

Jesus was about restoring the kingdom of David

If so, he evidently failed in that. Israel did not gain independence until 1948, and even now is not a monarchy.
If you mean something else entirely by "kingdom of David", please forgive my confusion, since to my knowledge, David's kingdom was an earthly realm, much like any other nation of that period.

Had he not been betrayed.

The Gospels indicate that he was fully aware of what Judas Iscariot was planning, and may even have planned it himself, since in the Last Supper scene in Gospel John, he outright tells Judas, in front of the other disciples, to go do what he had to do.
After all, Christian theology tells us that Jesus's death was necessary for God to forgive sin (or whatever phrasing one cares to use).

Why is it so hard to believe such a covenant could happen?

Because the party on the other side of the covenant (God), has not been demonstrated to exist outside of stories.

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 12 by Willum]

Quote, "I would say, he was a Christian, as he supported Christianity." Unquote

Jesus did not name any religion with the name "Christianity", so I believer he never supported it, please.
Regards

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by William]



I would say, he was a Christian, as he supported Christianity.

Horse before the cart. Christianity cannot honestly be seen to be what Jesus was about, or we would all be living in a very different world.

I understand the temptation to throw everything under the same simplistic heading - if for nothing else than it makes ones argument seem legitimate, but that in itself is dishonest as it is simply a tool useful for muddying the waters - or as I said "Smoke and mirrors" - theology is not the only guilty party in that regard.

Do what you will of course, as all do, for whatever reasons hidden or otherwise. I prefer to see through those illusions, as my points verify.

[alwayson]

Jesus was a Jew

Paul never places Jesus on Earth.

Paul believed that Jesus lived in outer space / lower heavens.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 13 by dio9]

Jesus was about restoring the kingdom of David

If so, he evidently failed in that. Israel did not gain independence until 1948, and even now is not a monarchy.
If you mean something else entirely by "kingdom of David", please forgive my confusion, since to my knowledge, David's kingdom was an earthly realm, much like any other nation of that period.

Had he not been betrayed.

The Gospels indicate that he was fully aware of what Judas Iscariot was planning, and may even have planned it himself, since in the Last Supper scene in Gospel John, he outright tells Judas, in front of the other disciples, to go do what he had to do.
After all, Christian theology tells us that Jesus's death was necessary for God to forgive sin (or whatever phrasing one cares to use).

Why is it so hard to believe such a covenant could happen?

Because the party on the other side of the covenant (God), has not been demonstrated to exist outside of stories.

Yes Jesus failed to reestablish an earthly autonomous Kingdom of Israel because he was unable to win the political support he needed from his people. He was betrayed.
John's Gospel was written 50 years after Jesus' lifetime. I don't believe Jesus sent Judas to betray him or that Jesus' rejection and death was necessary for the salvation of humanity. Rather just the opposite Jesus' acceptance was necessary for the salvation of humanity.
Sorry humanity does not seem to be saved yet .

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Horse before the cart. Christianity cannot honestly be seen to be what Jesus was about, or we would all be living in a very different world.

Why is it a cart before the horse for Jesus, but not for other leaders of movements? Why do we challenge language conventions to prove Jesus wasn't a Christian and was a Jew? Language conventions don't prove anything, in hindsight.

Why do we need to prove this? It's a silly point to make a distinction, does his message change if he were suddenly Chinese?

I'll wager that are about the same number elements to accept and ignore in Buddhism as there were in Judaism.

Jesus was the leader of the Christian movement. Therefore he was a Christian.
There is no way he could be considered Jewish. He violated commandment, genetically God could have chosen a duck-billed platypus to give birth to Jesus.

Jesus was Christian unless you accept a Jewish definition; the lineage is conferred by the female, something that also seems to come and go in time and also be true for convenience.

[1213]

Jesus was a Jew and he did not start a new religion called Christianity. Christianity was started by Paul and the Church. Right, please?
Regards

Christian originally meant disciple of Jesus. So obviously Jesus was not himself his own disciple. Wouldnt that be ridiculous?

And also, Jesus and Paul didnt start a new religion. It was about being Jew and obeying Gods law, but not outwardly, but so that the law is written in persons heart.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

As promised in this:

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Jesus and Paul didnt bring anything new, they confirmed the old. But unfortunately, people dont seem to care what they really taught. Atheist seem to be more interested to make Bible look wrong and many religionists are too interested to make money.