Jesus and Empire

[Furrowed Brow]

The NT tells us Jesus was born in an occupied land towards the outer edge of an empire. The empire eventually puts Jesus on trial, tortures then executes him. Given Jesus' treatment we might conclude the NT narrative is inherently anti empire. But there appears to be little in the way of direct criticism of empire and Rome.

What is the correct Christian attitude towards empire?

Today empire is often seen as a dirty word, and instead of the overt trappings of empire neo-colonialism is the modern form. If Jesus were to return today and duplicate the circumstances of his first coming where would he return today. Palestine? South Korea? Africa? Latin America?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 10 by Furrowed Brow]

How can a Christian not be angry at empire...it tortured their beloved prophet and suppressed his people.

I can think of at least two reasons.

One reason is that what they did to Jesus was not a surprise to Him. He knew in advance how He would be treated, and endured it all for our sake in obedience to His Father.

We Christians know that, and appreciate so much the miracle of our redemption that resulted.

The second reason is that we are a people called to follow the example of Jesus in leaving any reaction up to God, and to love our enemies.

Empires come and go, have done always. God and His people continue on, into the day when they will be fully displayed and all existing empires will fall.

[Furrowed Brow]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

One reason is that what they did to Jesus was not a surprise to Him. He knew in advance how He would be treated, and endured it all for our sake in obedience to His Father.

Does that really let the Roman Empire off the hook? The father allows the son to enter the world in which he very well knows there is a political and military force that will squash him as soon as he makes waves. Seeing what is going to happen and refusing to take action to avoid it does not militate the culpability of those involved.

For example, if Moe gets in Joe's car and Moe can clearly see Joe is drunk and will almost certainly crash the car, and the car crashes killing Moe. And Moe could foresee all this but was prepared to die so that Joe would face jail and so hurt no one else and there in the prison Joe finds God and repents his sins. How does this make drink driving ok? That is the moral comparison. It is not the emperor or the empires officials that are in question, but the act of forming and maintaining an empire. People can be forgiven and not hated, but the harmful action? The bible clearly shows us empires are harmful.

We Christians know that, and appreciate so much the miracle of our redemption that resulted.

I can see how this is a bit awkward for Christianity as the Roman Empire is enormously important in Christianity’s dominance of Western culture. It seems true that billions of people may never have heard of Christianity if not for the Roman empire.

The second reason is that we are a people called to follow the example of Jesus in leaving any reaction up to God, and to love our enemies.

Any reaction? If this were true then Christianity lacks an ethic it can vocalise and teach.

I wonder why the support and perpetuation of human empire is not a Christian sin when the kind of political power wielded by Rome was toxic to the life of Jesus. However, it is true, in the end the same power was a boon to the early Christian Church once Christianity and empire were aligned.

Empires come and go, have done always. God and His people continue on, into the day when they will be fully displayed and all existing empires will fall.

Empires do come and go. The brand changes and the mechanisms evolve. But the political structure of empire remains with us.

[Elijah John]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
Since the late 1970s when I began recording my dreams and work out the principles of reincarnation, Jesus and I communicate with each-other telepathically.
This is a man with the propensity to wade into the thickest where his participation will make a lasting impression and difference to those behind.
Perhaps you will recall the child abuse scandals in the Church in the 1980s and 1990s. Several priest, even a bishop has been convicted of this crime inflicted upon the most vulnerable, children entrusted in the care of clergymen.
In the reincarnation cycle, in 1990 Jesus was born to a Catholic priest and a young girl in predominantly Catholic Croatia. If you recall Croatia was at war with Serbia at the time and Jesus was born in Vukovar where the fighting was fiercest, and the population took to the road to escape the atrocities. Jesus as a 2 year old was among them. Lucky for his parents to have so easily escaped detection. The child was placed in a Zagreb orphanage and I travelled to Zagreb, hoping to adopt him. I was not successful
At age 9 Jesus was stabbed to death by a Catholic priest who sexually abused him and word got out.
I realize this is Christian website, and perhaps I will not be banned as I have from other Christian sites.

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[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 12 by Furrowed Brow]

The bible clearly shows us empires are harmful.

True. It does not support them but recognizes they will always be something believers are faced with. It is from such, and from religion, that persecution comes, which can result in martyrdom.

But the political structure of empire remains with us.

Yes, until Christ returns and replaces it all with His own reign and rule.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Jesus remained politically neutral and urged his disciples to do the same. I did not authorize them to resort to violence or politics to further his religious aims and while he spoke up when before authorities in his own defence, he did not encourage rebellion or anarchy.

Jehovah's Witnesses try and follow his lead.


JW

[bluethread]

Israel.

Bethlehem in the West Bank? If so that would be a politically charged return..no?

Sorry, this thread went to the wayside and just recently reemerged. When Yeshua arrived here the first time there was plenty of partisan turmoil. The current partisan turmoil is not much different. There were people at that time who were not happy about Cyrus' edict permitting the shul of prophets to return and build the Temple. These individuals are not mentioned much by the Apostles, because Yeshua's primary focus was Adonai's people and Paul was in part concerned about how to live under Roman rule. There were a wide variety of factions that have different views on how to live under Roman rule, just as there are a wide variety of factions with different views on how to deal with the current circumstances.

My view is that the focus of the Scriptures and Yeshua is the individual, family and community morality. The ways of the nations are generally only addressed when they interact with those concerns. Empire, monarchy, theocracy, democracy, etc. are treated simply as bureaucratic structures that are secondary to local concerns.