Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[tam]

I have answered you.

But I don't know how else to get you to see past your idea of the spirit body; of what kind of body Christ had after His death and resurrection; of what kind of body those who are His Bride will have; other than what I have already said.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 791 by tam]

I think the problem is you keep outlining what SPIRITS are capable of doing but you haven't presented any scriptural support for the idea that humans that will live on earth i will be able to do what spirits and angels evidently can do (ie travel between the two realms).

From what I understand you are not saying that the righteous will be spirits/angels (correct me if I'm wrong) but that they will be human. And humans have never been reported as doing any of the things you are implying they will be doing in the paradise (ie going up to heaven to see God and coming back down*).

I think we can all agree that Jesus (who was born as a human) is now no longer human but a mighty spirit being that can indeed walk through walls and see God in heaven at will.

But her citizens will still be people.

When you say "people" do you mean human people?

We are humans, so yes...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 791 by tam]

There is also the more fundamental question (which is what I think OWH is alluding to) of why? What is the point?

Angels don't live on earth. They have been known to make appearances on earth, but that always seems to be for a specific purpose and mission, their home, their permanent place of abode is with God in heaven.

But here you are outlining "humans" with "spirit capacities" (although you fail to prove such a thing is possible) living on earth a place spirits were never destined to live, remember Satan was cast to earth as a punishment! Since the bible specifically states that God created the earth for "the sons of men" (humans) why, especially without scriptural bases, conclude that it will be anything but the permanent home for humans?

The love of Jesus' life is his Father. When he completed his mission he prayed for one thing to be rewarded with the privilege of being once more at his father's side. It more than violates the spirit of his words to imply that Jesus' prayer will not be answered and like Satan he will be restricted to the earth with perhaps the occassional visit back to be literally with his father while the angels, that are inferior to him (Jesus) get to be with The Father permanently forever. I cannot say how upside down, forgive me, even perverted, such a theology is!

[onewithhim]

I have answered you.

But I don't know how else to get you to see past your idea of the spirit body; of what kind of body Christ had after His death and resurrection; of what kind of body those who are His Bride will have; other than what I have already said.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No, you have NOT answered my question, and here it is again:

You say that in the literal, physical Paradise that will envelop this planet forever (Psalm 37:29), its citizens will be spirits, right? I believe you said that in a previous post. So---why didn't God create everybody to be spirit persons like the angels in the first place and not bother with a physical planet, if that is how all humans would end up eventually anyway?

.

[tam]

I have answered you.

But I don't know how else to get you to see past your idea of the spirit body; of what kind of body Christ had after His death and resurrection; of what kind of body those who are His Bride will have; other than what I have already said.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No, you have NOT answered my question, and here it is again:

You say that in the literal, physical Paradise that will envelop this planet forever (Psalm 37:29), its citizens will be spirits, right?

No, I did not say that they would be spirits; I also did not say that they would be angels/seraphim.

I said that they would be human people with a new body. A new body - described as the white robe - that can move between the physical and the spiritual realms; that has life in it, that has no sin and death in it. I called it the spirit body NOT because it is some ethereal ghost thing (as you believe it to be) but at least in part, because it can enter (and exit) the spiritual realm. Just like the angels can do; just like Christ can do; just like Adam COULD do in the beginning. Before he sinned, eating of the tree of knowing good (life) AND BAD (death); before he was cast out of the Garden of Eden (the spiritual realm) and barred from returning; before sin and death entered into him (and the physical realm because of him); before he was given the long garment of skin (this body that we inherited from him) as a covering.

In contrast, the body that we will inherit from Christ has LIFE in it; no sin and no death.

I believe you said that in a previous post.

I don't recall ever saying that we would be spirits or ghosts. Or even angels/seraphim.

So---why didn't God create everybody to be spirit persons like the angels in the first place and not bother with a physical planet, if that is how all humans would end up eventually anyway?

Since I never said that humans would be spirits (immaterial ghosts) or seraphim (angels), this question is not applicable.


Is that more clear?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

I have answered you.

But I don't know how else to get you to see past your idea of the spirit body; of what kind of body Christ had after His death and resurrection; of what kind of body those who are His Bride will have; other than what I have already said.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No, you have NOT answered my question, and here it is again:

You say that in the literal, physical Paradise that will envelop this planet forever (Psalm 37:29), its citizens will be spirits, right?

No, I did not say that they would be spirits; I also did not say that they would be angels/seraphim.

I said that they would be human people with a new body. A new body - described as the white robe - that can move between the physical and the spiritual realms; that has life in it, that has no sin and death in it. I called it the spirit body NOT because it is some ethereal ghost thing (as you believe it to be) but at least in part, because it can enter (and exit) the spiritual realm. Just like the angels can do; just like Christ can do; just like Adam COULD do in the beginning. Before he sinned, eating of the tree of knowing good (life) AND BAD (death); before he was cast out of the Garden of Eden (the spiritual realm) and barred from returning; before sin and death entered into him (and the physical realm because of him); before he was given the long garment of skin (this body that we inherited from him) as a covering.

In contrast, the body that we will inherit from Christ has LIFE in it; no sin and no death.

I believe you said that in a previous post.

I don't recall ever saying that we would be spirits or ghosts. Or even angels/seraphim.

So---why didn't God create everybody to be spirit persons like the angels in the first place and not bother with a physical planet, if that is how all humans would end up eventually anyway?

Since I never said that humans would be spirits (immaterial ghosts) or seraphim (angels), this question is not applicable.


Is that more clear?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No. I am still not clear why God would create people who can go back and forth between the spirit realm and the physical realm. Why not just create everybody as occupants of the spirit realm and leave it at that? What advantage do you see in going back and forth?

[onewithhim]

Also.....JW's post #793 made some good points. Will you respond to that also? It is in line with my question that you haven't answered yet.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 791 by tam]

I think the problem is you keep outlining what SPIRITS are capable of doing but you haven't presented any scriptural support for the idea that humans that will live on earth i will be able to do what spirits and angels evidently can do (ie travel between the two realms).

Christ said that we would be like the angels in heaven; and since you are well aware that the only hope the apostles and disciples ever attested to having was to be with Christ wherever He goes, you are already aware that humans will be given the ability to do as the angels can do.

But not only do we go with Christ into heaven; we (the Bride) also comes down out of heaven.

I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2 (also corroborated by Revelation 3:12)

So we certainly have scriptural evidence of humans going up into heaven, as well as scriptural evidence of those same humans come down out of heaven.


Then of course Christ also said:

“Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in AND GO OUT and find pasture.


Come in and go out.


So yes, there is absolutely scriptural evidence for these things.

From what I understand you are not saying that the righteous will be spirits/angels (correct me if I'm wrong) but that they will be human.

Correct.

And humans have never been reported as doing any of the things you are implying they will be doing in the paradise (ie going up to heaven to see God and coming back down*).

Adam could enter into paradise (the Garden of Eden, the spiritual realm), even though he was created outside the garden. That garden was once "upon" the earth; easily accessible by Adam (and Eve). There was not some big separation between the two or how else would Adam have been able to rule the earth while also being in the Garden? Adam and Eve could access both until Adam was cast out because of what he did, proving that he could not be trusted with a) eternal life, and b) anything in the spiritual realm.

Keep in mind that even though Adam was created from the dust of the earth, there was no sin or death IN that dust as of yet. Then God also breathed into him (holy spirit - the breath, blood, seed of JAH), so that Adam was a SON. Of course a son can access His Father's house.


In any case, scripture states that the Bride will be taken up and enter into heaven; and scripture also that the Bride will come down out of heaven.

That is not even in question.

Your religion has just assigned some other meaning to those statements.

I think we can all agree that Jesus (who was born as a human) is now no longer human but a mighty spirit being that can indeed walk through walls and see God in heaven at will.

We can. But please make note of what you said. He can see God at will. Even if He were on the earth; He could see His Father at will.

In any case, in order for His Bride to be able to go with Him wherever He goes; would they not need to be able to do the same thing?

There is also the more fundamental question (which is what I think OWH is alluding to) of why? What is the point?

The point of being able to also enter into the spiritual realm and come before God? The point of no longer having a separation between the physical realm and the spiritual realm?


Would not the point be love; freedom; unity (rather than separation)? What need would there be for the separation when there is no more sin or death; no more enemies who wish to cause us to 'curse God and die'; enemies from whom the seed needs to be hidden?

remember Satan was cast to earth as a punishment!

Are you suggesting that being on the earth is a punishment?

Or do you suppose the "punishment" was him being cast out of heaven and barred from ever returning to a place that he once had access (just like Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden and barred from returning, barred also from eating of the tree of Life - although Adam may return, just like any of His offspring, through and because of Christ).

Since the bible specifically states that God created the earth for "the sons of men" (humans) why, especially without scriptural bases, conclude that it will be anything but the permanent home for humans?

The earth is created for the sons of men (humans), and yet, out of love, God also permits and enables the sons of men to access the spiritual realm (through Christ).

It is not one or the other; it is both.

What is the point of that?

Love.

Allowing also those who serve as kings and priests to be able to come directly before the Father.

Allowing one's sons to enter into one's house; as most Father's do allow.

The love of Jesus' life is his Father. When he completed his mission he prayed for one thing to be rewarded with the privilege of being once more at his father's side. It more than violates the spirit of his words to imply that Jesus' prayer will not be answered and like Satan he will be restricted to the earth with perhaps the occassional visit back to be literally with his father

This is a strawman argument. Christ is not in any way restricted to the earth like Satan.

As well, the garden of eden was once accessed on the earth - easily - what makes you think it will somehow be difficult when Paradise (the Garden of Eden) is once again upon the earth?

(Christ also loves His Bride, does He not - which is not just 'some' small group of Christians, but all Christians. Does it makes sense that His Bride will be forever separated from Him; not even permitted a visit to see Him, and Him not even permitted a visit to see her?)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 798 by tam]

So from what I can see you base this whole theology on your personal interpretation of one scripture in Revelation about the New Jersusalem and an illustration of Jesus being a gate. So you take two scriptures that by nature are highly symbolic (and by defintion open to various interpretations) and ignore all the explicit scriptures of the earth being the home of humans and the heavens being for spirits (compare Psalms 115:16).

The New Jersualem/Bride of Christ doesn't literally come down out of heaven, any more than God literally leaves heaven for his influence to be felt - compare Revelation 21:4

GENESIS 11:4-6
The LORD came down to see the city [Babel] and the tower which the sons of men had built. The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language.

As for your interpretation of John 10:9 it is the most ludicrous interpretation I have ever come across.

JOHN 10:9
I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and that one will go in and out and find pasturage.

Firstly there is nothing in the illustration to suggest the faithful are coming in and goint out of the location of heaven; if you look carefuly you will see they "go out to find pasturage" that is the reason his sheep go out. Does that mean that living in heaven by God's side they will be starving, physically or spiritually and will have to "go out" of heaven to eat because that is what the verse says!

In bible times at night shepherds that were near the town kept their sheep protected from looters and wild animals by keepting the flock in a stone pen or walled enclosure. The sheep access by an opening or "gate" (sometimes the shepherd would literally sleep across the opening, protecting them). In the morning he would lead his sheep "out" to pasture to drink and be fed. Surely you are familiar with the 23rd Psalm that "the Lord is my Shepherd ... by grassy pastures he leads me"

So Jesus was trying to teach about how he protects his people from spiritual "thieves" who would harm them, just as a literal door has the double purpose of keeping harmful elements out and keeping possessions or people in and safe. Look at the verses immediately before and after Jesus' words above:

Verse 8 "All those who have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them"

Verse 10 The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy.

- If being "in" the pen is being in heaven and being "out" is out of heaven, then does that mean the theives will climb into heaven and attempt to steal them from there?

- If being "in" is being literally in heaven, then does that mean that Christ is not our door now? Christians are unprotected now because we are not "in" the pen?

Which is more reasonable, that Jesus was telling his disciples how he (Jesus) would allow his disciples access to God's favor when they accept him as the Messiah and look after them day and night or that he was trying to teach them they would one day in the future permanently move in and out of heaven?

Further reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014680#h=10

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam could enter into paradise (the Garden of Eden, the spiritual realm), even though he was created outside the garden

Wherever adam was created, we know that the was formed from "the dust of the ground" so evidently he was created as a physical being. While there is mention of God "walking about in the garden" there is no mention of Adam "walking about" in heaven. The Garden of Eden was not presented in Genesis as being in the "spiritual realm" There is nothing in Genesis that indicates the garden of Eden was anywhere but in a specific location on this our planet earth.

GENESIS 2: 10-15
Now there was a river flowing out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it divided into four rivers. [...] The name of the third river is Hiddekel [Tigris]; it is the one going to the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it.

- There were animals in Eden but there is nothing in the bible to indicate that there are literal animals in heaven.

- There were trees that Adam and Eve needed for food to eat (spirits in the spirit realm have no need for physical food, since they are not physical life forms. God is a spirit as are all those in heaven).

Eden is presented in the bible as a garden-like location on this physical planet


- The location is identified by two rivers that still exist today

The traditional location for the garden of Eden has long been suggested to have been a mountainous area some 225 km (140 mi) SW of Mount Ararat and a few kilometers S of Lake Van, in the eastern part of modern Turkey

Another thing of note is that when Adam and Eve sinned, they were expelled from the garden; but since the "Tree of life" was in the middle of the garden, God sent two angels to block Adam and Eve's access, for fear they re-enter the garden and steal the fruit. Why would this be necessary if the garden was in the spirit realm and they continued their lives on earth? Are you suggesting Adam and Eve (like the spirit Satan) could go up to heaven ("paradise") and steal the fruit? Obviously if the angels and a revolving sword which would literally cut their bodies to pieces if they tried to get past it) were necessary it is because Eden was literally a physical location on the same planet Adam and Eve continued to live on.

CONCLUSION: The Genesis account does not support the notion of human beings traveling to and fro between the spirit and the physical realm. Spirits evidently have done so for specific missions, but there is not record of a human being do this or of any spirit (with the exception of Satan and demons) setting up permanent residence on this earth. All indication is that if the righteous will be physical human beings, then their permanent abode will be on this planet earth and they will not live in transit.

JW

RELATED POSTS

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p855832

Does Genesis 6:3 mean humans were decreed to live no longer than 120 years?
viewtopic.php?p=1056497#p1056497

What does the bible mean by "forever" when it speaks of the righteous living on earth ?
viewtopic.php?p=1075557#p1075557


Further reading: Was there really a garden of Eden?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011003