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a better world
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:57 am  Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration? Reply with quote

As I see it, there are several major obstacles to claims of divine authorship of scripture, especially that of the "Peoples of the Book".

Old Testament:

1. Disagreement among scholars over the (human) authorship and dates concerning the text of many chapters/parts of chapters.

2. Problems surrounding the ethics of a vengeful, tribal, genocidal God given to periodic rage against His own creation (including the tribe of Israel).


New Testament:

1. Early disagreement over works to be admitted to the N.T. canon.

2. Early disagreement over the relationship of the (evolving) N.T. canon to the O.T. canon, and the significance of this relationship: eg, church father and compiler of the early N.T. canon, Marcion (c.65-160A.D.), rejected identification of Jesus with Jehovah. Meanwhile, most Jews at the time (and still do) rejected Jesus as the "Messiah", while Christians deified Jesus and saw him as the messiah purportably prophesied in the OT.

3. Christian adoption of later extra-biblical dogma such as the Holy Trinity. and opposing Christian doctrines including Arianism, during the period of consolidation of 'orthodox' dogma.

Koran:

1. Of the three traditions, the Koran's authorship is indeed miraculous(?), received by revelation to the (reportedly illiterate) Prophet over a 20 year period at the beginning of the 7th cenury AD, with many references to biblical scripture. He railed against and despised the many divisions he observed both within and between the Christians and Jews of his time (noted above).

Tragically, he failed to anoint a successor, resulting in the Shia-Sunni split, almost immediately after his death. Nevertheless the rapid advance of Islam is seemingly miraculous; an army out of the desert of Arabia, of no particular interest to previous empires, rapidly spread Islam over much of the globe. (Only 100 years after the Prophet's death, Islam claimed countries from Spain in the West to Afghanistan in the East).

Note: the Koran failed to predict that Israel would be recreated - c. 1400 years later, through the agency of a technologically superior new Christian (British) empire - resulting in outrage and confusion within the present Islamic world.

2. In many ways the Koran offers the most straightforward and simplest access to the One True God - the All-knowing , the Infinite, the Compassionate, the Merciful, the All-Wise, etc; but the Koran, like all scripture, is rooted in the culture of its time, and is harmed by the barbaric 6th century punishments prescribed for "infidels" and criminals (and being carried out to the letter in Saudi Arabia and Iran to this day!).

3. The Prophet accepted the OT prophets and Jesus as messengers of God, but like the Jews, rejected identification of Jesus with God (Jehovah/Allah).


Relationship to the UN:

The OT, with its election of a chosen people and divine authorisation of genocide, is incompatible with the UN Declaration of Human Rights and modern international law (nascent as this law is, with its current acceptance of war as an arbiter of international affairs.).

Islamic terrorism is deeply rooted in a fundalmentalist belief that the Koran is the "final, perfect Word of God", a tragedy because many ISIS fighters see themselves as warriors of God, carrying out the 'Word' to the letter. Throw in the attraction that many young people feel in possessing the actual 'Word of God', plus widespread dissatisfaction with current economic circumstances around the globe, and we can explain the successes of ISIS recruitment even from Western countries.

But this terrorism is undoubtably fueled by the contending Christian belief in divine authorship of the Bible, with some strands of Christianity seeing the recreation of Greater Israel and the Jewish temple as NT prophecy related to Christ's return. Then we have Jewish terrorism, based on OT authorisation of territorial possession, which Prime Minister Rabin paid for with his life.

Conclusion: Scripture is not the Word of God, but the word of men searching for God (mostly in times long past). Failure to recognise this simple reality at the level of the UN will continue to be a major source of unrest in the world.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Wed May 10, 2017 5:15 pm
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Re: Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?

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a better world wrote:

As I see it, there are several major obstacles to claims of divine authorship of scripture,


I don't believe the UN reference the bible in their declaration, so I cannot imagine it is an issue. There is a biblical quote outside the building though...

JW

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:55 pm
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Re: Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

a better world wrote:

As I see it, there are several major obstacles to claims of divine authorship of scripture,


I don't believe the UN reference the bible in their declaration, so I cannot imagine it is an issue. There is a biblical quote outside the building though...

JW


But the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights certainly does proscribe any action - consequent to religious belief - that violates those rights stated therein.

That's why ISIS activity is very much a concern for the UN and international law.
But not only ISIS activity; any fundamentalist religious activity consequent to strict reading/interpretation of supposedly divinely-authored scripture, resulting in eg, claims to the West Bank, based on Old Testament scripture, are inadmissible, for the same reason.

Someone claimed in a previous post that the causes of entrenched poverty and war lay within (each one of) us.

That is actually true, but to suggest that the human journey is not amenable to learning from experience, and increased self-awareness through accumulation of knowledge, and the spreading of that knowledge by means of the rapidly expanding technology in a globally connected world - that view is untenable.

Footnote: JW's could actually transform themselves into a major reforming force in the world, since their basic doctrines are in agreement with substantial Judaic, Koranic and Christian beliefs; Christianity must eventually face its unsustainable belief in the divinity of Christ (who nevertheless remains the greatest human teacher of all time, with his Two Great Commandments entirely compatible with and indeed a forerunner to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 pm
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Re: Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?

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Quote:
Koran:

1. Of the three traditions, the Koran's authorship is indeed miraculous(?), received by revelation to the (reportedly illiterate) Prophet over a 20 year period at the beginning of the 7th cenury AD, with many references to biblical scripture. He railed against and despised the many divisions he observed both within and between the Christians and Jews of his time (noted above).

Tragically, he failed to anoint a successor, resulting in the Shia-Sunni split, almost immediately after his death. Nevertheless the rapid advance of Islam is seemingly miraculous; an army out of the desert of Arabia, of no particular interest to previous empires, rapidly spread Islam over much of the globe. (Only 100 years after the Prophet's death, Islam claimed countries from Spain in the West to Afghanistan in the East).

Note: the Koran failed to predict that Israel would be recreated - c. 1400 years later, through the agency of a technologically superior new Christian (British) empire - resulting in outrage and confusion within the present Islamic world.

2. In many ways the Koran offers the most straightforward and simplest access to the One True God - the All-knowing , the Infinite, the Compassionate, the Merciful, the All-Wise, etc; but the Koran, like all scripture, is rooted in the culture of its time, and is harmed by the barbaric 6th century punishments prescribed for "infidels" and criminals (and being carried out to the letter in Saudi Arabia and Iran to this day!).

3. The Prophet accepted the OT prophets and Jesus as messengers of God, but like the Jews, rejected identification of Jesus with God (Jehovah/Allah).


Quote:
Koran failed to predict that Israel would be recreated

It is not correct. In fact, Quran told this will happen, for sure:

[17:105] And after him We said to the children of Israel, ‘Dwell ye in the land; and when the time of the promise of the latter days comes, We shall bring you together out of various peoples.’
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=17&verse=104
Right, please?
Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:15 pm
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Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?

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Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?


This thread gives me a good indication of why I personally have moved from the position of thinking human beings collectively WILL get their act together - to thinking it is unlikely/very unlikely.

It also underlines my understanding that this world is primarily being experienced in order to allow for the chance for individuals to rehabilitate and that this is the initial stage of an ongoing process which will continue to unfold in - what is commonly referred to as an - "afterlife".

I agree with what member "a better world" is saying in his/her posts, because this is a sensible thing to do in relation to organised religions more anti-humane doctrines as counter productive to UN strategy for a better world. I see that the member has not made any more posts on this forum and has likely moved on in an effort to find minds more appreciative of the need for such - radical - changes in policy to do with this, which were not forthcoming on this forum.

Primarily the arguments in this thread against changes came from theists. I would have participated in the thread if I was aware of it, but it was member paarsurrey1's post which has re-floated the thread and brought it to my attention...

...with information regarding how the Quran also predicted the state of Israel - another subject for another thread...

All connected of course, threads are what make the whole garment...

Anyway...in relation to the OP of this thread, it is a great idea to amend the UN constitution regarding religious freedom and beliefs which contravene human rights in relation to religious rights, in that human rights take precedence over religious ones where religious rights actively ignore human ones.

That is just plain reasonable.

In relation to arguments brought into this thread to do with American constitutions, the UN also has precedence because America is just one country and the UN represents more than just one country and if it is politically about 'What America wants the world to do' and what 'the world wants America to do', then the world is likely more informed as it were, to what it feels is best for it.

Not that I am saying that America is the only superpower at fault here, Indeed it is the idea of 'superpowers' which is the stumbling block for UN policies to be able to take center stage as it were. The idea that to allow the UN to become the main 'superpower' and the stated fears about this coming from those countries which are presently superpowers, show those fears to be most likely based upon the motives/agendas of those superpowers themselves.

The fear that something else is going to do the things which superpowers are presently occupied in doing as per their agendas.

So rather than support the UN, the superpowers act in defiance to these constitutions which are trying to unite the world as one rather than continue along the destructive pathways which superpowers are presently steering humanity towards, and have been doing so for a very long time now.

It isn't even just about religious freedom, but also about business freedom, the freedom to use and abuse as the lawful accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few at the cost to the many, dictates. The fear of losing that freedom.

Quote:
"Money doesn't talk - it swears obscenities - who really cares? Propaganda. All is phony!"
~ A line from the Bob Dylan song 'Its's alright ma, I'm only bleeding'.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:49 am
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William wrote:

Quote:
Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?


This thread gives me a good indication of why I personally have moved from the position of thinking human beings collectively WILL get their act together - to thinking it is unlikely/very unlikely.

It also underlines my understanding that this world is primarily being experienced in order to allow for the chance for individuals to rehabilitate and that this is the initial stage of an ongoing process which will continue to unfold in - what is commonly referred to as an - "afterlife".

I agree with what member "a better world" is saying in his/her posts, because this is a sensible thing to do in relation to organised religions more anti-humane doctrines as counter productive to UN strategy for a better world. I see that the member has not made any more posts on this forum and has likely moved on in an effort to find minds more appreciative of the need for such - radical - changes in policy to do with this, which were not forthcoming on this forum.

Primarily the arguments in this thread against changes came from theists. I would have participated in the thread if I was aware of it, but it was member paarsurrey1's post which has re-floated the thread and brought it to my attention...

...with information regarding how the Quran also predicted the state of Israel - another subject for another thread...

All connected of course, threads are what make the whole garment...

Anyway...in relation to the OP of this thread, it is a great idea to amend the UN constitution regarding religious freedom and beliefs which contravene human rights in relation to religious rights, in that human rights take precedence over religious ones where religious rights actively ignore human ones.

That is just plain reasonable.

In relation to arguments brought into this thread to do with American constitutions, the UN also has precedence because America is just one country and the UN represents more than just one country and if it is politically about 'What America wants the world to do' and what 'the world wants America to do', then the world is likely more informed as it were, to what it feels is best for it.

Not that I am saying that America is the only superpower at fault here, Indeed it is the idea of 'superpowers' which is the stumbling block for UN policies to be able to take center stage as it were. The idea that to allow the UN to become the main 'superpower' and the stated fears about this coming from those countries which are presently superpowers, show those fears to be most likely based upon the motives/agendas of those superpowers themselves.

The fear that something else is going to do the things which superpowers are presently occupied in doing as per their agendas.

So rather than support the UN, the superpowers act in defiance to these constitutions which are trying to unite the world as one rather than continue along the destructive pathways which superpowers are presently steering humanity towards, and have been doing so for a very long time now.

It isn't even just about religious freedom, but also about business freedom, the freedom to use and abuse as the lawful accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few at the cost to the many, dictates. The fear of losing that freedom.

Quote:
"Money doesn't talk - it swears obscenities - who really cares? Propaganda. All is phony!"
~ A line from the Bob Dylan song 'Its's alright ma, I'm only bleeding'.

Quote:
Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?


Quran is that book and it reasonably claims that:

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect* Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2
*the

Right, please?

Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:54 am
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[Replying to post 35 by paarsurrey1]


Quote:
Scripture compatible with U.N. Human Rights Declaration?



Quote:
Quran is that book and it reasonably claims that:

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect* Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2
*the

Right, please?


Does the book give any followers the right to hurt or kill others or even treat them as inferiors in the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful?

If it does, then no - Quran is not that book and needs modifying to delete those type of verses.

My advice to all people under the rule of organised religion is that they do not regard their books as objects of worship. No book is perfect. No book is 'the word of GOD'.

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