Jesus Christ before becoming the Son of God and Son of Man

[Checkpoint]

I am starting this thread as a result of an exchange on another thread.

I now repost one of my posts to show what that was, and I invite anyone to join this discussion and debate the issue raised.

onewithhim wrote:

Just a question, to get your opinion on this: What do you believe that Jesus was doing before he came to the earth as Jesus of Nazareth?

My reply was

You will not like my answer, but as you say, it is an opinion.

Nothing.

For I believe Jesus then only existed in the mind and purpose of God, as expressed to His countless angels.

That is, as the Logos, as "that which" was "the Logos of life", 1 John 1:1-2.

I expect to get corrected on this forum, of course!

Yet I have drawn this conclusion only since arriving here, largely in response to a post or two of another, plus my own research and meditation.

onewithhim answered

I know you don't want to argue about this, so I don't intend to. I just want to ask one more question to understand where you stand in all this. Do I understand that you don't accept Jesus' claims to have been in existence in heaven before coming to Earth? Claims:

John 3:13
" 3:31
" 6:38
" 17:5

I then posted this:

A fair and understandable question, with relevant verses.

What I don't accept is your reading of them as saying "Jesus' claims to have been in existence in heaven before coming to Earth".

[onewithhim]

And Jesus the Christ gave us Paradise Found.

Milton had a better title then: Paradise Regained. It is not clear at all what the difference was for those who died before and those who died after Jesus wrote his poem.

That has been answered on these threads also.

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 50 by Checkpoint]

How does one know that he (Jesus) didn't literally and physically die?

Did some physician issue a death certificate that Jesus had died?
It was just a hearsay, please?

Regards

[marco]

[Replying to post 50 by Checkpoint]

How does one know that he (Jesus) didn't literally and physically die?

Did some physician issue a death certificate that Jesus had died?
It was just a hearsay, please?

Regards

I don't think you can accept those bits of the NT that agree with your own ideas and then arbitrarily discard others which don't. We are told that the crucified Christ had died. We are told he was born of a virgin. We are told he urged people to love each other. Why would we pick out the bits that suit us and discard the other bits? Is it not better to accept what is written as truth or just put everything aside as fiction?

We can use the same method with the Koran. Accept it on faith or, when we see chunks that seem wrong, we can discard it all. Is it MORE reasonable to believe Muhammad met an angel in some Middle Eastern cave in the 7th century than to accept that a 1st century preacher died from torture and crucifixion?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 50 by Checkpoint]

How does one know that he (Jesus) didn't literally and physically die?

Did some physician issue a death certificate that Jesus had died?
It was just a hearsay, please?

Regards

Do we know of a death certificate for Julius Caesar or Constantine? Why would we have to have a death certificate? You say that you believe the Quran, and the Quran says that Allah provided the entire Bible for mankind, so it must be true, right? The Bible says that Jesus died and rose on the third day.

[marco]

You say that you believe the Quran, and the Quran says that Allah provided the entire Bible for mankind, so it must be true, right? The Bible says that Jesus died and rose on the third day.

I think the argument is that the prophets, including Jesus, had truth. Those reporting on Jesus made mistakes. Allah waited six centuries for those errors to take root before correcting them and chose a desert trader on whom to unburden himself. Whereas the Bible is simply the inspired truth from God, and is subject to misinterpretation by fallible scribes, the Koran is the direct word of Allah, given to the last of the great prophets, presumably to clarify the message that Jesus didn't successfully deliver. Muhammad has, thankfully, successfully delivered it which is why the world is universally Islamic - or perhaps will be, one way or another.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 64 by marco]

I hope that before they all get to heaven to find their 40 virgins, they are forced to walk over hot coals with nothing on their feet except pig-skin loafers. Uh-oh. Can't get to heaven with pig-skin.

[marco]

[Replying to post 64 by marco]

I hope that before they all get to heaven to find their 40 virgins, they are forced to walk over hot coals

They may well have to, onewithhim. Who knows? But it is harsh to condemn people for an accident of geography. Had their favourite river been the Mississippi and not the Nile then they would possibly have a whole new set of aspirations.

Others are seduced romantically or are forced to subscribe. And the follies of the parents are visited on the children. It was ever thus and applies more widely than Islamically. I have to say that it was ingenious of Muhammad to invent that particular promise to those who were about to fight for him. And it seems to work still!

I agree with Hamlet:

"What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty!"

[paarsurrey1]

You say that you believe the Quran, and the Quran says that Allah provided the entire Bible for mankind, so it must be true, right? The Bible says that Jesus died and rose on the third day.

I think the argument is that the prophets, including Jesus, had truth. Those reporting on Jesus made mistakes. Allah waited six centuries for those errors to take root before correcting them and chose a desert trader on whom to unburden himself. Whereas the Bible is simply the inspired truth from God, and is subject to misinterpretation by fallible scribes, the Koran is the direct word of Allah, given to the last of the great prophets, presumably to clarify the message that Jesus didn't successfully deliver. Muhammad has, thankfully, successfully delivered it which is why the world is universally Islamic - or perhaps will be, one way or another.

I think the argument is that the prophets, including Jesus, had truth. Those reporting on Jesus made mistakes.

A Muslim does accept the Truth in other revealed religions but not the untruth:
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
ttps://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2
We believe of truth revealed on the messengers/prophets in general terms, the common message of the messengers/prophets, not what is understood by their later followers.

Regards

[marco]

A Muslim does accept the Truth in other revealed religions but not the untruth:

And others accept what truth they kind in the Quran. The problem is KNOWING what is truth and what is false. You have discovered that by dissecting the gospels you find falsehood, but you do not put your own holy book under the same scrutiny. There are bad things mentioned in Bible and Koran, which should make us think twice about accepting them.

Of course it is absurd to regard Jesus as existing eternally or being God's helper in building the Andromeda Galaxy or calculating where to place Black Holes. It is best to regard him as a nice guy who wanted to pass on a nice message for nice people.
Best wishes.