"The lost"

[Elijah John]

TBN preacher today said that what bothers "the lost" more than anything else is Christian hypocrisy.

Agreed, hypocrisy in others must be pretty annoying to many.

For debate:

1) define the term "the lost".

2) And who is she, or any preacher to say who is "saved" and who is "lost"? Who but (ultimately), God alone? Does becoming an Evangelical preacher suddenly confer upon a a person the ability read someone's heart and soul?

3) By using the term "the lost" is this preacher judging? Something that Jesus preached against.

[Elijah John]

Thanks to the apostle Paul for the precedent of turning brother against brother.

To be fair to Paul (and I don't always want to be) Jesus said he'd turn brother against brother, so he seems to have succeeded in his mission.

Fundamentalists, for me, are almost mythological. We have people called Wee Frees here and they get upset when coffee machines dispense coffee on Sundays in direct contravention of Yahweh's law. But if you don't disturb them, they are quite harmless. I tend to treat their ideas as several levels below Harry Potter.

Jesus meant biological brother against biological brother, Paul has, in effect, turned spiritual brother against spiritual brother.

And it stems from that passage where he would even consider an "angel of God accursed" for preaching what he considered a "different Gospel".

What is the derivation of the term "Wee Frees". Sound mythological in and of itself. .

[marco]

Jesus meant biological brother against biological brother, Paul has, in effect, turned spiritual brother against spiritual brother.

And it stems from that passage where he would even consider an "angel of God accursed" for preaching what he considered a "different Gospel".

What is the derivation of the term "Wee Frees". Sound mythological in and of itself. .

Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

As usual Jesus doesn't make it easy for us.


In 1843 there was a split in the Protestant Church of Scotland because of State interference with appointments. Those who objected broke free of the main body and were known as the Free Church of Scotland. Later, at the turn of the century, when some accord had been made, there was a further split by those who objected to reconciliation and this group became known as the Wee Frees. They are ultra strict and happily derive their messages directly from the Bible. I imagine they are Fundamentalist in their outlook. They are allergic to Roman Catholics.

[amortalman]

TBN preacher today said that what bothers "the lost" more than anything else is Christian hypocrisy.

Agreed, hypocrisy in others must be pretty annoying to many.

For debate:

1) define the term "the lost".

2) And who is she, or any preacher to say who is "saved" and who is "lost"? Who but (ultimately), God alone? Does becoming an Evangelical preacher suddenly confer upon a a person the ability read someone's heart and soul?

3) By using the term "the lost" is this preacher judging? Something that Jesus preached against.

As a former evangelical Christian, I'm somewhat familiar with TBN broadcasting although everyone I've seen on the show was heavy into miracles and speaking in tongues, which my Southern Baptist church considered errant doctrine. Other than that and a handful of other minor disagreements, we ran on the same rail so to speak.

I'm almost certain the preacher's definition of "the lost" was along the lines of those who had never repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. This is also what I believed for many years (some denominations of TBN ilk also believe that baptism my emersion in water is also necessary for salvation).

So, if the preacher held this definition of "lost" as I think he did, then yes, you could say he was making a judgment according to his beliefs, although he would undoubtedly heartily disagree. He might point out that to enlist the Bible's definition of "the lost" (as he understands it) is no different from "judging" that the sky is blue or that the ocean is full of water.

I might point out that the belief of evangelicals is that the lost are condemned to eternal agony in a literal fiery hell. The lost includes all those billions who have lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message. This is one reason I abandoned religion. There are many other reasons, too.

[marco]

I might point out that the belief of evangelicals is that the lost are condemned to eternal agony in a literal fiery hell. The lost includes all those billions who have lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message. This is one reason I abandoned religion. There are many other reasons, too.

It's a good reason for going. Effectively these people are describing their God as brutal and vindictive, punishing even those who are not culpable. I would say this is a form of blasphemy against their good and merciful God. And a bad advert for him!

There is, too, a huge element of pharisaical pride in placing themselves in the top seats and condemning others to eternal damnation for not seeing things as they see them.

O, to see ourselves as others see us, as Robert Burns said.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

So true, Marco. It's amazing to me how deeply blinding religious indoctrination goes. Every Christian I know either ignores the hard questions about their faith or brushes it off with statements like "You just have to believe it by faith." Well, no I don't.

[marco]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

So true, Marco. It's amazing to me how deeply blinding religious indoctrination goes. Every Christian I know either ignores the hard questions about their faith or brushes it off with statements like "You just have to believe it by faith." Well, no I don't.

To be honest I don't mind if people are pious. I do mind when their piety spills into action against me in supposed defence of their beliefs. We're experiencing today what renegade Christians experienced centuries ago when they risked burning and torture if they spoke ill of Christian beliefs. Today, people who draw pictures of Muhammad - lost souls - can be sentenced to death. We move two forward and then three back, it seems.

[ttruscott]

I might point out that the belief of evangelicals is that the lost are condemned to eternal agony in a literal fiery hell. The lost includes all those billions who have lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message. This is one reason I abandoned religion. There are many other reasons, too.

I do not have this reaction to these thoughts because my contention is:
- All people created in HIS image have heard the gospel already: Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that HAS BEEN proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

- All people created in HIS image have seen the proof of HIS divinity and power:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Therefore the lost (those who are already condemned to hell (Jn 3:18) contains NOT ONE PERSON who has lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message nor who has not seen the proof of YHWH's divinity and power. The lost are lost due to putting their free will faith in the idea that YHWH was a false GOD and a liar when HE made HIS unproven claims, thus putting themselves outside of HIS grace and mercy for ever, sealing their own fate.

[paarsurrey1]

TBN preacher today said that what bothers "the lost" more than anything else is Christian hypocrisy.

Agreed, hypocrisy in others must be pretty annoying to many.

For debate:

1) define the term "the lost".

2) And who is she, or any preacher to say who is "saved" and who is "lost"? Who but (ultimately), God alone? Does becoming an Evangelical preacher suddenly confer upon a a person the ability read someone's heart and soul?

3) By using the term "the lost" is this preacher judging? Something that Jesus preached against.

I would like to explain the above expressions as I find them connected to the following prayer:

[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path —
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... r.php?ch=1

~Those who are "lost" are mentioned in the above prayer [1:7] "who have not gone astray".
~The "saved" are those who are treading steadfastly on the "right path" mentioned in verses [1:5] - to [1:6] and have been bestowed with blessings.
~The pastor cannot judge a person, the On-True-God is there to judge, only He knows as to what is in the heart of a person and what circumstance one did a wrong. He alone is, therefore, the best Judge. Right, please?

Regards

[amortalman]

I might point out that the belief of evangelicals is that the lost are condemned to eternal agony in a literal fiery hell. The lost includes all those billions who have lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message. This is one reason I abandoned religion. There are many other reasons, too.

I do not have this reaction to these thoughts because my contention is:
- All people created in HIS image have heard the gospel already: Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that HAS BEEN proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

According to Paul, then, at the time he supposedly wrote the book of Colossians, around 50 A.D., the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven (including cats, bats, and turtles, I suppose). During the first century A.D., the gospel had not spread much further than Palestine, yet there were tribes of people living all over the world. It could not have possibly happened.

But even if it did, the world's population has swollen to over seven billion today. The Joshua Project estimates suggest that approximately 6,700 people groups are still considered unreached (with the gospel).

- All people created in HIS image have seen the proof of HIS divinity and power:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

As much as Christians don't like to think about the billions of people throughout history who have never heard the gospel and are burning in hell right now it remains the truth according to the teaching of their Bible.

It's curious that the same writer who wrote the verses you quoted also wrote in the same book that it was necessary to send a preacher to preach to those who have never heard. If one can learn the gospel message from looking at a tree or cloud why was a preacher necessary? (Rom. 10:10:13-15)

Therefore the lost (those who are already condemned to hell (Jn 3:18) contains NOT ONE PERSON who has lived and died having never heard of Jesus Christ nor the gospel message nor who has not seen the proof of YHWH's divinity and power. The lost are lost due to putting their free will faith in the idea that YHWH was a false GOD and a liar when HE made HIS unproven claims, thus putting themselves outside of HIS grace and mercy for ever, sealing their own fate.

The only evidence you have to support your claims come from a book one must take by faith. A book, by the way, full of myths and legends about an ancient god not totally different from the gods of other civilizations at the time.

I have no trouble denying a god who would forever torture his crowning creation with fire for the simple sin of not believing that which he cannot perceive with his five senses.

[amortalman]

OK, let's take a slightly different angel on this. Is it an insult to call someone who is a non-Evangelical "lost"?

Is this offensive and off-putting to non-Evangelicals?

Do you increase or decrease your chance of "winning souls to Christ" by using such a term?

Is there a better term Evangelicals could use?

During my 15+ years as an evangelical Christian, I never used the term "lost" when witnessing nor did I ever hear anyone else use it.

On a one-on-one situation, it would be judgmental and rude to tell someone they're lost in such a direct way.

I'm sure many would be offended by it, driving them further away.

If it was clear to us that they had never accepted Christ we let them know they were lost in a more subtle way.

We explained the gospel message of what was required for one to be saved from eternal separation from God and the consequences of refusing Christ.

This was generally how Southern Baptist evangelicals approached witnessing.

Preachers, however, often referred to the lost when preaching to their congregations and this was acceptable.

I hope this helps your understanding of evangelicals, at least from a Southern Baptist perspective.

Other evangelical branches and groups may approach witnessing another way.