"The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

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Elijah John
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #11

Post by Elijah John »

alwayson wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Elijah John]

When you translate Zechariah's Yeshua from Hebrew into Greek, you get IÄ“sous.

The same Greek name of Jesus in the New Testament.
And what is the exact verse in Zechariah that speaks of the Messiah by the name Iesous, Joshua, Yeshua, Jesus etc...

I'd like to see it and consider whether it is open to interpretation, and if apologists are reading into it as is so often done.

Does the verse, in effect, say "the Messiah's name is Jesus"?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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rikuoamero
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #12

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
The first century Jews misinterpreted scripture because their motives were selfish, they were looking for a warrior Messiah that would instigate revolt and free them from the despised Roman yoke
Why do you say 'selfish' here? Why is it you impugn a negative reason or motive when there is no evidence to back it up?

Have you ever read the full scriptures? I remember debating a list of what you consider to be Jesus-fulfilled prophecies here
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... hp?t=32010

To give an example of why it is perfectly reasonable for Jews to not consider Jesus to be the messiah, the prophecy that you allege Jesus fulfilled at the top of the list reads as such, from Micah 5:2
And you, O Bethʹle·hem Ephʹra·thah,+
The one too little to be among the thousands* of Judah,
From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel,+
Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.

Jesus was never the ruler of Israel.

Indeed, in that thread, I point out that Jews, then and now, would have been paying attention to the rest of the book Micah. Micah 5:5-6 NWT

And he will bring peace.+
Should the As·syrʹi·an invade our land and tread on our fortified towers,+
We will raise up against him seven shepherds, yes, eight princes* of mankind.
6 They will shepherd the land of As·syrʹi·a with the sword,+
And the land of Nimʹrod+ at its entrances.
And he will rescue us from the As·syrʹi·an,+
When he invades our land and treads on our territory.

Even if we substitute Roman for Assyrian, Jesus evidently did NOT 'rescue' Israel from foreign invasion.

I pointed this out before to you here
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... 250#851250 and again here
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... 237#851237
and you never responded to either of them.
they were looking for a warrior Messiah that would instigate revolt and free them from the despised Roman yoke
Which is precisely what you describe as Jesus-fulfilled prophecies say!
they had no interest in this lowly carpenter from the backwoods, preaching some heavenly kingdom and urging submission.
Rhetorical question, so why is it that what you describe as Jesus-fulfilled prophecies talk so much about a military leader, and not a lowly carpenter from the backwoods?
The masses then, like the religious masses today, are hoodwinked and manipulated by their religious leaders whose sole interest was in furthering their own political and economic interests.
Why is it you say this, in a thread asking whether or not the whole Bible is about Jesus? Has the possibility occurred to you that JW religious leaders may be hoodwinking/manipulating you?
The lies and misinformation deliberately propogated in the first century around the person of Jesus
Wait...what? What lies/misinformation? By 1st century, we're talking 0AD to 100 AD, correct? What documentation do we have (outside the Bible) that mentions Jesus that can be dated to that?
Did Jesus fulfill the Messianic Prophecies?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#847881
I responded to what you link there before, along with a few others, and AGAIN...you never responded to our rebuttals.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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rikuoamero
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #13

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
A rebuttal to what you link here.
The following eight prophecies were considered:
1) “But thou, Bethlehem Epratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.� (Micah 5:2) (Note: today the population of the earth is larger than the 2 billion figure used when Stoner made his model.) To arrive at the answer Stoner started with the average population of Bethlehem from the days of the prophet Micah to this present time and divided it by the average population of the earth for the same period. It was discovered that this ratio was 1 to 280,000. Since that time the earth has had an average population of 2,000,000,000. So the answer would be one man in 7,150/2,000,000,000 or one man in 2.8 X10 to the fifth power was born in Bethlehem.
Notice what I underlined and then bolded. They calculate the odds (not even going to bother going into the actual mathematics because it is beside my point) of someone who was born in Bethlehem. Except that's not all that Micah 5:2 says. They quoted it themselves. RULER IN ISRAEL. They completely ignored that part when doing their calculations.
Jesus was never ruler in/of Israel. Not only that, but as I mentioned up above, just three verses down in Micah Chapter 5, there's talk of this messiah repelling foreign invasion.
Again, Jesus did not do that.
All of this is completely ignored by this apologetic.
“Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me…� (Malachi 3:1) How many men who have been born in Bethlehem have had a forerunner sent by God to prepare his way? We will use the conservative estimate of 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.
No reason given at all for this number that they just pluck out of thin air. Also, they don't show how they figured out that Malachi is talking about Jesus. Notice again that they ignore what Micah 5:2 says about a ruler in Israel. They just mention Jesus being from Bethlehem, which they take as a given, an incontrovertible fact.
3) “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon…a colt the foal of an ass. � (Zechariah 9:9) The question now becomes, “One man in how many, who was born in Bethlehem and had a forerunner, entered into Jerusalem as a king riding on the colt, the foal of an ass?� Because this question is too restrictive, we will broaden it to read, “One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a colt, the foal of an ass?� We will use 1 in 10 to the second power.
Again, this number is plucked from thin air. Their logic here is out of whack in that now they REDUCE the number, instead of increasing it! In point 3, we had 1 in ten cubed, and now...it's even MORE likely, instead of less? Shouldn't they have said 1 in ten to the fourth power, to try to make Jesus sound even more stupendous?
4) “And one shall say unto him, ‘What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Then he shall answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'� (Zechariah 13:6) One man in how many all over the world has been betrayed by a friend and as a result suffered wounds in his hands? We will use 1 in 10 to the third power.
Again, no explanation for where this number comes from, and also, the question they ask and the number they give would mean that every man in one thousand would have been betrayed by a friend and suffered hand wounds (what sort of wounds? Again, a complete lack of precision). This wouldn't make Jesus anything special.
“And I said unto them, ‘If ye think good, give me my price; and if no, forbear. So they weighed for my price, thirty pieces of silver.� (Zechariah 11:12) Of all the people who have suffered betrayal, how many have been betrayed for exactly thirty pieces of silver? We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to third power.
Do I need to repeat myself about how often they're plucking 1 in 10 cubed out of thin air? Also, as has been argued in the past...how is Zechariah a prophecy? Indeed, just like in Micah, JW and other apologists ignore lines just a few verses down from what they claim are prophecies about Jesus. What about Zechariah Chapter 11 verse 15 onwards (taken from NWT)?

And Jehovah said to me: “Now take the equipment of a useless shepherd.+ 16 For I am letting a shepherd rise up in the land. He will not take care of the sheep that are perishing;+ he will not seek out the young or heal the injured+ or feed those able to stand. Instead, he devours the flesh of the fat one+ and tears off the hooves of the sheep
Is the above about Jesus? If it isn't, how is verse 12 about Jesus?
“And the Lord said unto me, ‘Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.� (Zechariah 11:13) This specifies that the price is not to be returned, but rather cast down in the house of the Lord. Then, without the person throwing them down doing anything, those to whom the silver was returned would have to give the silver to the potter. The reason the priests to whom the remorseful Judas returned the money he received from them to betray the Messiah did not put the funds back into the temple treasury was because it was not money obtained in a kosher, an appropriate way. There was a provision that the priests could spend discretionary funds to meet specific needs. The field they purchased from the potter was subsequently used as a cemetery for travelers and low income people. None of the students had ever heard of another incident involving all these criteria. So we used the estimate as 1 in 100,000 or 10 to the fifth power.
This apologetic completely ignores the conflict between Matthew 27:3–10 and Acts 1:18-19. Matthew says the priests bought the field, Acts says it was Judas. Also, this apologetic does not show any evidence that this field ever existed, or how they figured out that it was 'in fact' the priests who bought it.
And again...yes, getting sick of saying it...but the number at the end is plucked out of thin air.
7) “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth� (Isaiah 53:7) What are the odds that an innocent man who has been betrayed, oppressed and afflicted and is on trial for his life will not offer a single word in his own defense?� We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.
Quite high in fact, if the man in question honestly believes himself (but is mistaken) to be the figure of prophecy and as such will deliberately not say anything to defend himself.
Since I have established that these apologetics have a pattern of ignoring surrounding verses, I will go now to read Isaiah Chapter 53, to see what else it says.

Hmm
He was despised and was avoided by men,+
A man who was meant for* pains and was familiar with sickness.
It was as if his face were hidden from us.*
He was despised, and we held him as of no account.+
4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses,+
And he bore our pains.+
But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted.

So...Jesus was a sick man? He suffered from sickness, disease? His face was hidden...so what? He had a disfigurement on his face, perhaps a tumour?
Notice that I am taking this as literally as possible, just like JW and other apologetics took verse 7.
What about verse 10?
He will see his offspring
Most Christians deny that Jesus had any offspring. Or verse 9
And he was given a burial place* with the wicked
I suppose if one wants to argue that Joseph of Arimathea was wicked...
“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: the pierce my hands and my feet� (Psalm 22:16) When David wrote these words, death by crucifixion had yet to be invented. The question is, “One man in how many from the time of King David on, has been crucified?� (p. 105) We estimated that it would have been 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 10 to the fourth power.
If I take the NWT version of that Bible verse, I get
For dogs surround me;+
They close in on me like a pack of evildoers,+
Like a lion they are at my hands and feet.+

No mention of anything being pierced. Also, as another user pointed before in earlier threads, Psalm 22 has the person saying
But I am a worm and not a man
Was Jesus a worm? Is this literal or a metaphor? Is this about Jesus, or just whoever the author of Psalm 22 was?
And again...number. Thin air. Plucked.
Also...think about what they said here. They asked how many men, from the time of King David [to Jesus] were crucified, and came up with only one in ten thousand. Wow. Didn't know the kingdoms of Israel and Judah were that peaceful, and had such low crime rates!
Next, “If these estimates are considered fair, one man in how many men, the world over, will fulfill all eight prophecies? Let’s run the math. We have 1 in 2.8 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 100 X 1,000 X 1,000 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 10,000. This gives us 1 in 2.8 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Let us simplify it by calling it 1 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Written out we have 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.� (p.105f)
All of these numbers are plucked from thin air. While I do not have the book, the web page talking about all of this does NOT give citations for the numbers. Nothing is ever mentioned as to how they got these numbers. So the 1 x 10^28 number is completely bogus.
We can safely dismiss it and ignore it.
Remember, these are the odds of one man fulfilling just 48 of the 300-350 Messianic prophecies. Whom among us can deny Christ’s credentials?
Me, because what is alleged to be Jesus Christ fulfilling prophecy is very poorly sourced. I have a few times pointed out that at least some of what are described as Jesus-fulfilled prophecies only seemed to be counted as prophecies after the 'fact', such as Jonah being in the fish for three days, or that bit from earlier about the 30 pieces of silver.
Stoner adds, “Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world.�
Apart from the religious [strike]propaganda[/strike] books extolling Jesus as supposedly fulfilling these prophecies...what evidence is there to prove that he did?
Now that you have learned additional facts which document the Messiah’s identity,
While ignoring surrounding verses that quite obviously point AWAY from Jesus, I would say. Remember Micah 5's "ruler in Israel"?
you most likely will give intellectual assent that what the scriptures say is true. In the same way, the person caught speeding may give intellectual assent regarding the posted speed limit.
To have this analogy match what is actually going on here with these apologetics, the person caught speeding would point out that there are multiple sign posts with different speed limits on them along the same stretch of road.

UPDATE
“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: the pierce my hands and my feet� (Psalm 22:16) When David wrote these words, death by crucifixion had yet to be invented. The question is, “One man in how many from the time of King David on, has been crucified?� (p. 105) We estimated that it would have been 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 10 to the fourth power.
I also want to mention that no evidence is presented to show that King David actually DID write Psalm 22. Much like everything else in this series of apologetics, it is taken for granted.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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rikuoamero
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Post #14

Post by rikuoamero »

JW, do you have any responses to my critiques of what you have said?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:Does the verse, in effect, say "the Messiah's name is Jesus"?
To the best of my knowledge there is no such verse; nor would that prove particularly useful as Jesus (Yehoshuah/Joshua) was not a particularly rare name. Rather the Hebrew bible presents a "profile" of the Messiah, what he would do, how he would teach, what he would accomplish... as well as when he would appear on the world scene, and it invites people to use their discernment.

JW

RELATED POSTS

Messianic Prophecies
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 223#851223
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #16

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Does the verse, in effect, say "the Messiah's name is Jesus"?
To the best of my knowledge there is no such verse; nor would that prove particularly useful as Jesus (Yehoshuah/Joshua) was not a particularly rare name. Rather the Hebrew bible presents a "profile" of the Messiah, what he would do, how he would teach, what he would accomplish... as well as when he would appear on the world scene, and it invites people to use their discernment.

JW
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would need to appear twice in order to usher in the Messianic age, or establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would need to appear twice in order to usher in the Messianic age ...?
Yes, there is the indication that the Messiah would die in disgrace and also of him ruling in an everlasting kingdom, the only way the two statements can prove true would be more than one manifestation (compare Isaiah 53: 3-9; Psalms 89:36, 37)
Elijah John wrote:
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
Yes :


Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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rikuoamero
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #18

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]
You link back to a list of prophecies where I had something to say about them, yet you never replied to my rebuttal, nor again here. Are you just going to repeat or link back to these prophecies and never once engage your opponents (such as myself) when we critique this list of claimed prophecies?
Such a think smacks of dis-ingenuousness. Can you defend the list of prophecies even after myself or others have examined and refuted them?
To link back again and again to this list of prophecies here on a debate site and yet never once try to actually defend them...
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #19

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Calling "foul" on this one.

You misquoted me by attributing this to me:
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
When in actuality I said this:
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would need to appear twice in order to usher in the Messianic age, or establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
The part I underlined, is the part you omitted. Changes the meaning of my question significantly.

You basically answered a question I did not ask.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: "The whole Bible is about Jesus"...

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
In that "profile" is there any indication the Messiah would need to appear twice in order to usher in the Messianic age, or establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
Ok well, now that you have clarified that my answer is now as follows:

Yes, there is in that "profile" indication that the Messiah would need to appear twice in order to usher in the Messianic age, or establish the Kingdom of God on earth. There is the indication that the Messiah would die in disgrace and also of him ruling in an everlasting kingdom, the only way the two statements can prove true would be more than one manifestation (compare Isaiah 53: 3-9; Psalms 89:36, 37)
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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