Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Reply to topic
Elijah John
First Post
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:15 pm  Which is it? Reply with quote

Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Matthew 28.19

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the "Risen Christ" on the same page as the pre-Easter, "historical Jesus"?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:15 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to Monta]

You will have to explain your reasoning more fully.

Do you mean to say that in context John 3:16 is not about God’s salvific work based on His love for people? If so, I think that you need to go back and read the third chapter of John’s Gospel. That actual context does not support that conclusion.

If that is not your meaning, then what are you trying to say?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 am
Reply

Like this post
Elijah John wrote:

Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?



My own thinking is that Matthew 15:28 is the precise moment when Jesus realised that His mission was not only to His own people, the Jews, but to humanity entire. One might even say, this is exactly when Christianity as a global movement was truly born. Consider the whole passage:

Quote:
Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet [even] the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV


Best wishes, 2RM.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:39 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post (1): Monta
bjs wrote:

Monta wrote:

[Replying to post 16 by bjs]

"If we pull a single line out of its context then we can use it to say that Jesus was only interested in Israel. When we put this line in its context then Jesus was teaching a more universal love well in line with the Great Commission."

"For God so loved the world...that whosoever...".

You will have to explain your reasoning more fully.

Do you mean to say that in context John 3:16 is not about God’s salvific work based on His love for people? If so, I think that you need to go back and read the third chapter of John’s Gospel. That actual context does not support that conclusion.

If that is not your meaning, then what are you trying to say?

I do believe that she was trying to agree with you.

That "God so loved the world" = is saying "universal love", and then "whosoever" = is also saying universal love and the "great commission".

The concept that God only wants to save a few chosen people is the opposite.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:58 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post
JP Cusick wrote:


The concept that God only wants to save a few chosen people is the opposite.


Was Jesus saying that "God only wants to save a few chosen people" by saying he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel?

If we examine that statement further, isn't the implication that some of the people of Israel were not lost, and that only the "sick need a doctor" (to paraphrase another statement made by Jesus)?

Israel always believed it's message of salvation by knowledge of the one, true Living God was universal, and Jesus being a Jew no doubt believed it too.

So perhaps Jesus saw his mission not as one of universal salvation (God had nation of Israel for that. "Salvation from the Jews" was always available to Gentile "God Fearers" as well) but only to call the lost sheep of Israel (the ones who were actually lost) to repentance?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:37 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post
Elijah John wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:


The concept that God only wants to save a few chosen people is the opposite.


Was Jesus saying that "God only wants to save a few chosen people" by saying he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel?

If we examine that statement further, isn't the implication that some of the people of Israel were not lost, and that only the "sick need a doctor" (to paraphrase another statement made by Jesus)?

Israel always believed it's message of salvation by knowledge of the one, true Living God was universal, and Jesus being a Jew no doubt believed it too.

So perhaps Jesus saw his mission not as one of universal salvation (God had nation of Israel for that. "Salvation from the Jews" was always available to Gentile "God Fearers" as well) but only to call the lost sheep of Israel (the ones who were actually lost) to repentance?

I realize that people just ignore comments, but still I did explain it quite simply that the people of Israel were not lost sheep, see my comment #14, because Israel was to be a Kingdom of Priest (Shepherds) for the rest of humanity, and thereby the lost sheep are the rest of humanity.

And the name "Jew" is really a slang which came many centuries later, as the names were really Israel and Judah (the people were Judeans), and Jesus did not come from Judea, He came from Nazareth in the land of Galilee, see map HERE.

The people called "Israel" was physically lost, and the Jewish people were spiritually lost, and Jesus opened the way for all of humanity to be saved.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:52 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post
JP Cusick wrote:


The people called "Israel" was physically lost, and the Jewish people were spiritually lost, and Jesus opened the way for all of humanity to be saved.


Please demonstrate that the Jewish people are or were "spiritually lost".

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:01 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post (1): JP Cusick
Elijah John wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:


The people called "Israel" was physically lost, and the Jewish people were spiritually lost, and Jesus opened the way for all of humanity to be saved.


Please demonstrate that the Jewish people are or were "spiritually lost".


In those days, it was thought that illness and disability were just punishment for sins committed. That is why Jesus is often quoted as curing with the words, 'your sins are forgiven you'.

And then there were the tax collectors, and publicans, and money lenders in the temple, and such.

And then there were the Sadducees, and Pharisees, and the whole, corrupt, temple hierarchy.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post (1): JP Cusick
Elijah John wrote:

Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Matthew 28.19

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the "Risen Christ" on the same page as the pre-Easter, "historical Jesus"?


Jesus' mission was precisely and specific towards the Beni Israel or children of Israel:

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
[3:49] “And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel;
[3:50] “And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers.
[3:51] ‘And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely, the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden you; and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me.
[3:52] ‘Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so worship Him: this is the right path.’ ”
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=49
Jesus was a follower of Moses and was to reform Moses' followers and set them on teachings descended on Moses from the On-True-God. Jesus mission was not to propagate creeds like Trinity which is similar making and worshiping "Golden Calf" done while Moses was alive and as per Torah Moses had to kill three thousand Jews*.
Right, please?

Regards
_____________
*Exodus 32:28

27 He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'" 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
http://biblehub.com/exodus/32-28.htm

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:01 pm
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post
2ndRateMind wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:


The people called "Israel" was physically lost, and the Jewish people were spiritually lost, and Jesus opened the way for all of humanity to be saved.


Please demonstrate that the Jewish people are or were "spiritually lost".


In those days, it was thought that illness and disability were just punishment for sins committed. That is why Jesus is often quoted as curing with the words, 'your sins are forgiven you'.

And then there were the tax collectors, and publicans, and money lenders in the temple, and such.

And then there were the Sadducees, and Pharisees, and the whole, corrupt, temple hierarchy.

Best wishes, 2RM.


I should have been more specific. Please demonstrate that the Jewish people as a whole or in general were "spiritually lost". I could be wrong, but I think that is what JP was asserting.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:10 pm
Reply
Re: Which is it?

Like this post
Elijah John wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:


The people called "Israel" was physically lost, and the Jewish people were spiritually lost, and Jesus opened the way for all of humanity to be saved.


Please demonstrate that the Jewish people are or were "spiritually lost".


In those days, it was thought that illness and disability were just punishment for sins committed. That is why Jesus is often quoted as curing with the words, 'your sins are forgiven you'.

And then there were the tax collectors, and publicans, and money lenders in the temple, and such.

And then there were the Sadducees, and Pharisees, and the whole, corrupt, temple hierarchy.

Best wishes, 2RM.


I should have been more specific. Please demonstrate that the Jewish people as a whole or in general were "spiritually lost". I could be wrong, but I think that is what JP was asserting.


Ah well, maybe, but he will have to answer for that point of view. My own suspicion is that most people, for most of history, have been reasonably and acceptably virtuous. It's only when wealth and power are immediately accessible prospects that they tend to lose their moral compass.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version