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Elijah John
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:15 pm  Which is it? Reply with quote

Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Matthew 28.19

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the "Risen Christ" on the same page as the pre-Easter, "historical Jesus"?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 41: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:57 pm
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[Replying to post 40 by Provoker]


"So the ultimate goal of Jesus and his disciples, was to rebuild the Christ corps with faithful Jews, who would commit to giving up everything they held dear to follow the coming Christ to the resurrection of the kingdom of covenant national Israel."

Which apparently never happened.
Don't think that today's 'Israel' is what Jesus had in mind.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 42: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:38 am
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Monta wrote:

[Replying to post 40 by Provoker]


"So the ultimate goal of Jesus and his disciples, was to rebuild the Christ corps with faithful Jews, who would commit to giving up everything they held dear to follow the coming Christ to the resurrection of the kingdom of covenant national Israel."

Which apparently never happened.
Don't think that today's 'Israel' is what Jesus had in mind.
IMO Monta, you are right. The modern state of Israel is a far cry from what resurrected covenant Israel will be. Resurrected covenant Israel will not be defined by it's name, but by it's national goal of fulfilling God's everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise of everlasting world peace.
Yes, it apparently never happened...yet. God's everlasting gospel promise has not changed, and "faith in God" has no time limit:-)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 43: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:35 am
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[Replying to post 42 by Provoker]

So when is it time for God to pay his debts?
Surely the people of Israel have the right to become impatient with their covenant, God did agree to his side after all...
Personally, I'd be miffed if a contract wasn't executed in my lifetime, but perhaps I have high expectations.

Or, perhaps your perspective is reasonable: The Jews have abandoned their covenant - after all, no one sacrifices rams (or humans) to Yahweh any longer, and murder and other commandment violations seems to be the way of life. So it seems very reasonable that the Children of Israel are in breach of the covenant and God is simply not fulfilling his part.

Thoughts?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 44: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:21 am
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2ndRateMind wrote:


My own thinking is that Matthew 15:28 is the precise moment when Jesus realised that His mission was not only to His own people, the Jews, but to humanity entire. One might even say, this is exactly when Christianity as a global movement was truly born. Consider the whole passage:
IMO 2RM, we have been taught by Rome, to ignore the greater context of scripture, and instead to use the preconceptions of the church fathers as context. As a result we miss the most important points of scripture, and are fooled by the false doctrines of Rome.
For instance; Churchmen today are not aware that God preached the gospel first to Abraham, 2000 years BC, and believers have been justified by faith since 2000 years BC. Israel followed a pagan religion after Moses died, and inspite of that, the faith of Abraham was still the gospel which Jesus preached to backslidden Jews, and Paul preached to gentiles. Those who are justified by faith in God's everlasting gospel, which included Jesus, naturally know that the mission is global, because it is clearly stated in God's explanation of the gospel.
Covenant national Israel ceased to exist a thousand years BC, so there was no Israel in the first century. However, those who have the faith of Abraham, regardless of their genealogy, naturally look forward to the resurrection of covenant national Israel(the coming kingdom). They are "spiritual Israel"/"the spiritual kingdom"/"the body of Christ"/"the church"/ etc. First century Judeans were Jews, but not because of their bloodline. They were Jews because they had the faith of Abraham(the faith of Judaism). Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the hope of those who have faith in God, is "The coming kingdom".

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 45: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:27 am
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

Petrameansrock wrote:

[Replying to post 34 by paarsurrey1]

Enoch and Elijah did not die, they have physical bodies in the Spiritual Realm just like Jesus.


A spiritual realm is not a container of physical bodies, and God is only attributive neither a physical nor a spiritual object.

Regards


Such didactic statements are encouraged to be supported by some kind of proof or at least, some evidence of truth.

Are you unaware of the biblical explanation of our resurrection bodies, 1 Cor 15:35-53? Your defintion here must deal with these ideas...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 46: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:00 pm
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Willum wrote:

[Replying to post 42 by Provoker]

So when is it time for God to pay his debts?
Surely the people of Israel have the right to become impatient with their covenant, God did agree to his side after all...
Personally, I'd be miffed if a contract wasn't executed in my lifetime, but perhaps I have high expectations.
IMO Willum, God's promise was from His foreknowledge, and referred to the ending He saw from the beginning, rather than something God is going to do.
What God said in His everlasting gospel promise to Abraham, is that a great nation of Abraham's children, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all the families of all the nations on the earth.
The blessing of God's gospel is unconditional for those who will receive it(everyone on the earth). There are always conditions which must be met for anything to take place, and that is why God explained the conditions which will be met, because God saw them taking place. Abraham is part of those conditions because it is a nation of his children which is going to do the blessing...Not God. The difference between the God of Abraham, and the pagan gods which have always existed, is that the pagan gods are evil, and will punish anyone who will not obey the priesthood. The God of Abraham simply, and graciously, revealed the good news for mankind, which is coming.
Quote:

Or, perhaps your perspective is reasonable: The Jews have abandoned their covenant - after all, no one sacrifices rams (or humans) to Yahweh any longer, and murder and other commandment violations seems to be the way of life. So it seems very reasonable that the Children of Israel are in breach of the covenant and God is simply not fulfilling his part.

Thoughts?
My thoughts are that churchmen have been taught to major on minor things, and to completely ignore the major things...LOL
The Jews never had a covenant with God. The Children of Israel promised God that it would keep the 10 rules of national unity, and become the great everlasting nation defined by God in His everlasting gospel promise to Abraham. The Children of Israel was a mixed national assembly when it left Egypt, and when the land was divided up, non-descendants inherited equally with descendants. The point is that covenant national Israel was not based on bloodline, but on faith in God's everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise.
Laws are not part of God's gospel promise, but laws are always neccessary for a nation, and a nation is part of God's gospel promise.
After Moses died, Aaron abandoned the faith of Abraham and established a priest-defined pagan religion for Israel, like all the other nations of the world had.
Rome has fooled us since the 4th century, so there not enough of God's faithful, at this time, to establish the great everlasting nation of God's gospel.

What do you think Willum?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 47: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:14 am
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[Replying to post 46 by Provoker]


"Rome has fooled us since the 4th century, so there not enough of God's faithful, at this time, to establish the great everlasting nation of God's gospel."

Don't know how Rome got into or an everlasting nation
when the NT is full of the words of Jesus and His Apostols.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 48: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:29 am
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[Replying to post 47 by Monta]
Hi Monta:
God's gospel promise to Abraham was that a great nation of Abraham's children, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all the nations on the earth, with everlasting peace on earth.
Rome only became part of the story because Rome happened to be in possession of that land in the first century. After the Babylonian captivity ended, Jews who were committed to the resurrection of the kingdom of covenant Israel, returned to Judea. Their commitment made them a threat to the national security of the Roman Empire.
Rome established a universal state church which did not include the threatening faith of Abraham in it's doctrines. Rome forced all the churches of the empire to become part of the universal state church, and that was the end of true Christianity.
Can you see it now?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 49: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:24 pm
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Provoker wrote:

[Replying to post 47 by Monta]
Hi Monta:
God's gospel promise to Abraham was that a great nation of Abraham's children, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bless all the nations on the earth, with everlasting peace on earth.
Rome only became part of the story because Rome happened to be in possession of that land in the first century. After the Babylonian captivity ended, Jews who were committed to the resurrection of the kingdom of covenant Israel, returned to Judea. Their commitment made them a threat to the national security of the Roman Empire.
Rome established a universal state church which did not include the threatening faith of Abraham in it's doctrines. Rome forced all the churches of the empire to become part of the universal state church, and that was the end of true Christianity.
Can you see it now?

Quote:
all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt

Is this a legitimate way to set the boundaries of the countries in the world, please?
Is this promise valid even if the descendants of Abraham are wrong doers, please?:

[2:125] And remember when his Lord tried Abraham with certain commands which he fulfilled. He said, ‘I will make thee a Leader of men.’ Abraham asked, ‘And from among my offspring?’ He said, ‘My covenant does not embrace the transgressors.’
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=124
Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 50: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:23 pm
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[Replying to post 49 by paarsurrey1]Hi paarsurrey:
God said that because of Abraham, all the families of all the nations on the earth, will be blessed...not may be blessed.
The gospel promise begins with: A great nation of Abraham's children will... God did not say that if a great nation of Abraham's children is good enough, they might... We find out later in scripture that Abraham's children refers to anyone who shares Abraham's faith.
Having The faith of Abraham is not something which happens because one says he believes. Having the faith of Abraham will take over one's whole life. That's why Jesus said that he didn't want any disciples who would put their hand to the plow and turn back. God's faithful are naturally committed to leaving everything they hold dear to follow the coming Christ to the resurrection of the great nation which God promised will exist forever and bring peace on earth.
Believers don't follow Jesus because the promise won't be fulfilled without them, but because that kind of faith makes one want to be part of the fulfillment.
The way I see it is; when the body of Christ(the Christ corps) is large enough to possess the land defined by God in His gospel, the resurrection will take place. The leader of the Christ corps(the Christ) will be given the kingdom of David, and he will lead the kingdom to everlasting peace on earth.
He will make his enemies his footstool. He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will make them beat their swords into plowshares. He will not allow them to learn war anymore. Nation will no longer rise up against nation. That is the fulfillment of God's gospel: on earth peace, good will toward men.
Now this is all my opinion, and it was not taught to me by any denomination. I formed my opinions by reading the bible for the continuous, consistent, logical story which flows through it, from God's revelation of the gospel to Abraham.
Paul said; God preached the gospel first to Abraham saying; in thee shall all nations be blessed. Paul also said that anyone who preaches a different gospel should be cursed.
The priesthood which has covered up the bible story since the 4th century, had done a good job, but it is time for churchmen to start reading the whole bible and thinking for themselves.

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