The Black Plague, mass slavery, white-washing?

[Willum]

So it is a matter of history that men stated that God told them to hunt witches and exterminate cats witch, sorry, which, promoted so much of the Black Plague, by allowing the rats to proliferate.
Men stated God encouraged slavery of the children of Ham, supposedly blacks.
God, according to man, insisted on the Manifest Destiny, the elimination of North American natives.

We'll assume God is real for this OP.

The argument against the above is that Judeo-Christians say it wasn't God, but men that did these despicable acts...

So let's compare with the Bible in general.

Aren't all claims in the Bible made by men saying it is God who told them? God told them to: Build an ark, kill Canaan, etc.. The church and slavers say the same.

But more importantly:
Aren't the horrors of the first paragraphs absolutely consistent with the Biblical horrors?

So isn't it reasonable to assume, that God did tell Hitler, Polk, the founders of the slave trade and the Catholic Church to perform these actions? He told the Jews of old to perform similar acts, indeed he performed similar horrors personally.

Isn't the real mystery why and what kind of men would defend this God and develop rationalizations for how he was good?

[ttruscott]

Isn't the real mystery why and what kind of men would defend this God and develop rationalizations for how he was good?

IF this planet is not just a prison planet but a death row for those who have committed capital crimes, who would wonder at the punishments meted out to such psychopathic inmates for the crimes they commit? And if some punishment is brought about by the evil of other inmates, is that less just than it being meted out by a righteous angel? GOD doesn't force people to be evil to others but HE does allow it whether in the name of religion, politics or perverse pleasure.

The bible does say that the holy angels will mop it all up some day...

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

Well, it is an awfully jolie prison. If it weren't for men, hurting one another, melting the globe, and such, this planet would be, in fact, is a paradise. Not a great place to put prisoners, especially with the will to reform.

But when God was intervening, according to the Bible, aren't the acts of modern atrocities similar to the atrocities God himself is alleged to mandate?

Are we really so ignoble that we should be punished in this prison, by this God and he should also instruct our wardens to inflict more punishment?

In which case, I'm with Satan, rebel, make prison a heaven.

[Wootah]

Europeans were pagan - I think it more likely that there were many existing superstitions in society competing with Christianity. In a desperate situation such as the black plague, I have no doubt people would be willing to try anything and we know that means using superstition. Think of Steve Jobs and other cancer suffers who tend towards nonsense in seeking a cure (and who can blame them).

The Bible has fairly strong cleanliness laws that I think would have helped if the Bible was more well known among the population.

For instance, I'm a Christian and I struggle with separating what God wants from what I want daily and I live in a post-Christian society. It would be much harder back then when quite frankly how many knew what was in the Bible at all? Many of these Middle Age societies are undergoing their Christian revolutions and quite frankly it feels at times like the devil had the handbrakes on. Consider it took Martin Luther and a huge violent uproar to get the Bible into the common people's hands.

If you cast the situation in another context I think we can all agree that the law should deal heavily with shonks. Suppose a shonky doctor tried to sell magic water to your mother because your mother had cancer or worse your child had cancer and your mother wanted to help by giving her magic water. For me it would be best if the law got their hands on the shonk before I did.

Witches are basically shonks selling nonsense and best removed from society.

You only have to read about the still going on today tragedies in PNG or Africa where shamans still control the people with nonsense to wonder how bad it might have been in Europe once as well. Let's all die at 30 but have druids!

Finally I searched this link for the word 'cats'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death#Causes

Perhaps you can log into wiki and update the article to include the killing of cats? Why did the scholars of wiki neglect this important factor?

edit: Also in the sources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/ ... s-off-hook

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

GOD doesn't force people to be evil to others but HE does allow it whether in the name of religion, politics or perverse pleasure.

This is simply not true God has forced and coerced people to do evil.Pharaoh for instance was forced by God to hold on to the Jewish people's as slaves.

[polonius]

So it is a matter of history that men stated that God told them to hunt witches and exterminate cats witch, sorry, which, promoted so much of the Black Plague, by allowing the rats to proliferate.
Men stated God encouraged slavery of the children of Ham, supposedly blacks.
God, according to man, insisted on the Manifest Destiny, the elimination of North American natives.

We'll assume God is real for this OP.

The argument against the above is that Judeo-Christians say it wasn't God, but men that did these despicable acts...

So let's compare with the Bible in general.

Aren't all claims in the Bible made by men saying it is God who told them? God told them to: Build an ark, kill Canaan, etc.. The church and slavers say the same.

But more importantly:
Aren't the horrors of the first paragraphs absolutely consistent with the Biblical horrors?

So isn't it reasonable to assume, that God did tell Hitler, Polk, the founders of the slave trade and the Catholic Church to perform these actions? He told the Jews of old to perform similar acts, indeed he performed similar horrors personally.

Isn't the real mystery why and what kind of men would defend this God and develop rationalizations for how he was good?

RESPONSE: And still do you want to maintain that the Bible is really "God breathed"?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

The Bible has fairly strong cleanliness laws that I think would have helped if the Bible was more well known among the population

Perhaps, but during this time the Church abrogated cleanliness and stated baths were a sin.

As to the cats, I was taught this in HighSchool and didn't think it needed a reference as it was common knowledge...

Because of their secretive nature and their ability to survive extraordinary circumstances, the general population came to fear cats as consorts of Satan. The innocent cats began to be killed by the thousands. -Dark Kitties

[1213]

So it is a matter of history that men stated that God told them to hunt witches and exterminate cats

Men are quite free to make whatever claims they like. Not all claims are necessary from God, or even truth. So, please tell, who exactly did what you claim?

Men stated God encouraged slavery of the children of Ham, supposedly blacks.

Also in this case, please give the names, who and where made those claims?

God, according to man, insisted on the Manifest Destiny, the elimination of North American natives.

Please name the person who made that claim?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 8 by 1213]

Men are quite free to make whatever claims they like. Not all claims are necessary from God, or even truth. So, please tell, who exactly did what you claim?

Read the OP.

Also in this case, please give the names, who and where made those claims?

Read the OP.
Or me being nice

Please name the person who made that claim?

Polk is credited with it, which you would have known if you read the OP.

Or learned history. Your choice.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

You make a lot of good points, Willum. But as to the reason that many defend God as depicted in the Bible would be for the ethics that this God YHVH has codified into law. Namely the Ten Commandments, and the laws of love for God and Neighbor, and the Golden Rule.

God, and His people as depicted in the Bible don't always live up to God's own ideals.

Oppression, slavery and genocide are violations of the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments. The Spirit, if not the letter of those Laws.

And the Bible has been used both to support the atrocious practices you outline, as well as to condemn and abolish them.