Matthew 28:19

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Petrameansrock
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Matthew 28:19

Post #1

Post by Petrameansrock »

So this scripture is the reason almost every major denomination baptizes in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is also a major argument for the Trinity. But as we have seen in the past with 1 John, there are instances where scripture has been touched by man to promote Trinitarian doctrine. My question is do you think this scripture is valid or invalid? I know we have a lot of people who aren't Trinitarians on here, so that's why I ask.
Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be Baptized in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the forgiveness of your sins, and you WILL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

polonius
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Re: Lets see how reliable a source document Theophania is.

Post #51

Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 26 by polonius.advice]

None of this proves Eusebius "changed his mind" since the issue is not whether he agreed with the Council of Nicaea but whether any of his writings can be taken to be a departure from that view.

Reiterating the edict of constantine sheds no light on this matter and certainly doesn't prove your case; it is rather like showing someone your marriage certificate to try and prove that you were divorced. Nobody is arguing Eusebius was an not a trinitarian, at least I presume that is not what you are claiming (feel free to clarify), the question is do you have documentation that proves that he believed exclusively a short "baptimal formula" as opposed to a long one (although the documents we have testify him speaking about BOTH" and absolutely nothing in them that indicates he was in any way opposed to the traditional long formula).

May I suggest you try again without the unproven assumptions (saying he changed his mind without proving what he changed his mind FROM) , strawmen fallacy (pointing out he agreed with the council of nicea when that was never the issue) or axiom (presenting the quotation under question as proof of the conclusion) but hopefully with some relevant information.

Take your time,


JW



A reference to the Johannine Comma can no more be proved that Matthew 28:19 is an interpolation than pointing to the murder of JFK to "prove" a woman shot her husband.
RESPONSE: I've proven that Eusebius changed his mind to avoid loss of office and exile as happen to the bishops at Nicaea who maintained their position.

Once again, Eusebius' earlier writing:

Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (The History of the Church) written 323 to 326
"But the rest of the apostles, who were harassed in innumerable ways with a view to destroy them and drive them from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the Gospel to all the nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, 'Go ye, teach all nations in my name.'Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, translated by C.F. Cruse,(1998) Book 3, Chap. 5, page 70



The Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine written? Earliest copy 336 ?
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.'

The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02

JW argued:
A reference to the Johannine Comma can no more be proved that Matthew 28:19 is an interpolation than pointing to the murder of JFK to "prove" a woman shot her husband.
QUESTION: What are you talking about? The Johannine Comma is a similar alteration in John's gospel to that made in Matthew's gospel to provide some scriptural basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.

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Post #52

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 46 by polonius.advice]


Moderator Commentplease try condensing your posts away from dozens of one liners. Thank you.

Please review the Rules.


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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #53

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by Petrameansrock]

On a somewhat related note,

If the Trinity is real and eternal, why weren't kings and prophets anointed "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? But only in the name of the LORD (YHVH)?

Why didn't King David say to Goliath, "I come to you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

CSMM
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Re: Changes in the current New Testament

Post #54

Post by CSMM »

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

Theophania:
But He drew near to them, spoke with them, and said: "All power (both) in heaven and earth, is given to me of my Father. Go ye and make Disciples of all nations, and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold! I am with you always even to the end of the world." (4.8)
The first writing you quoted was one of the last things supposedly written by EUsebius.

The person you were answering asked for Eusebius' early writings.

Theophania was long lost. From what I understand there is only a Syriac version. Whose translation are you quoting?

This one says it was a long lost work:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... reface.htm
""HAVING now to discharge the very agreeable duty of presenting to the Christian Church (in a translation), a long lost work of one of its most learned and laborious Pastors, my first duty will be, to give the best account I can of this Work ; my second, to describe the Manuscript from which it has been taken ; my third, to lay down the principles by which I have been guided, both in editing the Syriac text of this Manuscript, and in making and illustrating my English Translation of it. ""

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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #55

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

I couldn't agree more, "in the name of" can imply "in the authority of" rather than literally according to what someone or something is called. Looking at Mat 28:19 objectively there is no reason to conclude it supports the trinity.

JW
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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #56

Post by CSMM »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Eusebius also quotes Deuteronomy 32:8 in the same chapter and section of Theophania.
"He said was given to Him, by His Father, those upon earth, in conformity with this (viz.) "Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thy possession. For, from ancient times,--as Moses attests,--" The most High, when dividing the nations, appointed the boundary of the people, according to the number of the angels23." |225 So that the Angels of God were, from ancient times, Rulers over all that was on the earth. "

The DSS shows it was the "sons of God", and YHWH's inheritance was Jacob. EL Elyon, the Father, gave YHWH Israel. Jesus was following EL and NOT YHWH.
EL was known to be the Father of the gods in that area.

CSMM
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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #57

Post by CSMM »

2timothy316 wrote:
Petrameansrock wrote: [Replying to post 8 by 2timothy316]

I think that in order to conduct either analysis you need to know what it actually said originally, which is why I started the forum. What are your thoughts on its accuracy as our modern Bibles portray it?
I have no indications that Matthew 28:19 isn't accurate in any translation that I know of. The key to understanding the scripture is understanding what 'in the name of' means.

Strong's concordance describes the word onoma - name; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others. http://biblehub.com/greek/onoma_3686.htm

So armed with this information lets look at Matthew 28:19 again with new eyes.

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit."

We have 3 titles here thus 3 distinct manifestations of character. We also have the definite article before each title in the Greek word 'to' or 'tou'. The Father, the Son and The holy spirit. So these titles are not just some father and not just some son.

According to the Greek "in the name" is not their actual names. Like Jehovah, Jesus and well the Holy Spirit doesn't have a 'name'. 'In the name' means what these those titles (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) represent, are made manifest or stand for.

According to the Gospel of the Hebrews, that church fathers quote from the Hebrew followers of Jesus, Jesus called the Holy Spirit his Mother. This goes along with what Philo was teaching. The Mother was Wisdom from Proverbs 8.
In the Gospel of the Hebrews, she came to him at his baptism, and rested in him.

dan p
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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #58

Post by dan p »

[Replying to post 1 by Petrameansrock]


Hi to all , and anothere KEY Greek word is NATION / ETHNOS !!

#1 , Nation / Ethnos has many means , like , Race , Heathen , Gentile , and Jewish Nation !!

#2 Are Jews to go to all the world ??

#3 , I believe it means the 144,000 Jewish Nation are to reach those during the first 3 1/2 years at thw being of the Jacob's trouble of the GREAT TRIBULATION !!

#4 When reading John 11:48 They are thinking what way to get rid of Jesus before the Roman's shall come and take away both our PLACE AND GENTILE !!

#5 To take away both our PLACE and Jewish Nation makes sense !!

#6 The same for verse 50 and 51 !!

A lot more can said about Matt 28:19 and verse 20 and that is another post !!

dan p

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Re: Matthew 28:19

Post #59

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 57 by dan p]

No, it means true Christians will be seen going from door to door, preaching in the streets, preaching where ever people can be found telling anyone that will listen about the kingdom and this will be happening in every nation on earth.

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Isn't JW quoting incompletely?

Post #60

Post by polonius »

JW quoted:


Matthew 24:14 This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations.
No, it means true Christians will be seen going from door to door, preaching in the streets, preaching where ever people can be found telling anyone that will listen about the kingdom and this will be happening in every nation on earth.

RESPONSE: Perhaps you should quote completely the scriptures you cite?

Matthew 24:14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
14 And this good news[a] of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

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