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paarsurrey1
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:51 pm  Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith? Reply with quote

Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 51: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:42 am
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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onewithhim wrote:

Monta wrote:

[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]


"You say that Jesus preached "just a blind-faith" and not reasonable or rational? How so?

Paul did not say that he met Jesus "in a vision." A vision would be seeing something that wasn't really there. The scripture says that "suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him [Paul, then Saul]." (Acts 9:3) There is nothing about it being a "vision." We can take it to the bank that Paul encountered Jesus himself. "

Thank you for this correction. Nice to get it right.
Some people either do not know the scripture, perhaps never read it only what they hear here and there, or intentionally misconstrue it.

I am interested to know how you arrived at the idea that Jesus preached "blind faith" and was not reasonable nor rational. (Or was that paar?)


I am equally lost to see where did I agree with blind faith.
I agreed with the response starting with: 'Paul did not say that he...'

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 52: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:43 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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Monta wrote:

onewithhim wrote:

Monta wrote:

[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]


"You say that Jesus preached "just a blind-faith" and not reasonable or rational? How so?

Paul did not say that he met Jesus "in a vision." A vision would be seeing something that wasn't really there. The scripture says that "suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him [Paul, then Saul]." (Acts 9:3) There is nothing about it being a "vision." We can take it to the bank that Paul encountered Jesus himself. "

Thank you for this correction. Nice to get it right.
Some people either do not know the scripture, perhaps never read it only what they hear here and there, or intentionally misconstrue it.

I am interested to know how you arrived at the idea that Jesus preached "blind faith" and was not reasonable nor rational. (Or was that paar?)


I am equally lost to see where did I agree with blind faith.
I agreed with the response starting with: 'Paul did not say that he...'

I apologize. I probably inadvertently was responding to something paar said and thought it was you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 53: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:00 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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[Replying to post 50 by onewithhim]

Quote:
Paarsurrey wrote:
I didn't say that Jesus preached "just a blind -faith". Did I, please?
Regards


Quote:
Onewithhim wrote:
Yes, in your post #43.


I said in my post #43:

Quote:
Quote:
"Risen Christ" gives him (Paul) an unfair advantage over the rest of us

It is just a blind-faith, not a reasonable and rational faith that Jesus preached.
Paul did not meet Jesus personally.
He just stated that Jesus had met him in a vision.
Jesus did not declare Paul a trust-worthy person. Did he, please?


It is not the doing of Jesus but of the so-called "Risen Christ" which is only a made-up story of Paul that he invented to instill blind-faith in the "Pauline Christians".
Jesus had by then migrated to elsewhere from Jerusalem. I understand the Jesus was a reasonable and rational person. I did not attribute blind-faith to Jesus but to Paul and to the "Pauline Christianity".

Sorry, one misunderstood me.

Will one like to answer the question in my post referenced by one, please?:

Jesus did not declare Paul a trust-worthy person. Did he, please?

Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 54: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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>>Paul did not say that he met Jesus "in a vision." A vision would be seeing something that wasn't really there. The scripture says that "suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him [Paul, then Saul]." (Acts 9:3) There is nothing about it being a "vision." We can take it to the bank that Paul encountered Jesus himself.<<




Paul wasn't saying it. Whoever put it in Acts said it. And it was a talking light. No resurrected Jesus to go to the bank with. In Paul's own version Jesus appeared to all 12 Apostles. Judas must have been resurrected as well.

1 Corinthians 15 :3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 55: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:05 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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Quote:


It is not the doing of Jesus but of the so-called "Risen Christ" which is only a made-up story of Paul that he invented to instill blind-faith in the "Pauline Christians".
Jesus had by then migrated to elsewhere from Jerusalem. I understand the Jesus was a reasonable and rational person. I did not attribute blind-faith to Jesus but to Paul and to the "Pauline Christianity".

Sorry, one misunderstood me.

Will one like to answer the question in my post referenced by one, please?:

Jesus did not declare Paul a trust-worthy person. Did he, please?

Regards



Jesus spent a lot of time in Matthew warning against false prophets to come, and people doing things in his name that he never knew.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 56: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:24 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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CSMM wrote:

Quote:


It is not the doing of Jesus but of the so-called "Risen Christ" which is only a made-up story of Paul that he invented to instill blind-faith in the "Pauline Christians".
Jesus had by then migrated to elsewhere from Jerusalem. I understand the Jesus was a reasonable and rational person. I did not attribute blind-faith to Jesus but to Paul and to the "Pauline Christianity".

Sorry, one misunderstood me.

Will one like to answer the question in my post referenced by one, please?:

Jesus did not declare Paul a trust-worthy person. Did he, please?

Regards



Jesus spent a lot of time in Matthew warning against false prophets to come, and people doing things in his name that he never knew.


If I correctly understood one's post:
Yes ,I believe, Jesus timely warned his sheep of a wolf in sheep's clothing- meaning Paul thereby,before leaving Jerusalem .
It is for this that I believe Paul was the seed of the Anti-Christ as he gave teachings never known to Jesus and ,therefore, it is Anti-Jesus and the new religion/Church under the garb of Pauline-Christianity when spread in the world is the Anti-Christ , now. It has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings. Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 57: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:45 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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paarsurrey1 wrote:



It is for this that I believe Paul was the seed of the Anti-Christ as he gave teachings never known to Jesus and ,therefore, it is Anti-Jesus and the new religion/Church under the garb of Pauline-Christianity when spread in the world is the Anti-Christ , but . It has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings. Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards


You may be correct about Paul but he did not declare himself to be greater than Jesus, nor his equal. His sermon on love cannot be attacked; it replicates the central part of Christ's teaching.
Muhammad, on the other hand, usurped Christ's position as the messenger from God by declaring he was the FINAL prophet. It would seem that Muhammad is the antic-Christ in arrogating to himself the position that Jesus occupied. Jesus was warning us about Muhammad.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 58: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:43 pm
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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marco wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:



It is for this that I believe Paul was the seed of the Anti-Christ as he gave teachings never known to Jesus and ,therefore, it is Anti-Jesus and the new religion/Church under the garb of Pauline-Christianity when spread in the world is the Anti-Christ , but . It has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings. Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards


You may be correct about Paul but he did not declare himself to be greater than Jesus, nor his equal. His sermon on love cannot be attacked; it replicates the central part of Christ's teaching.
Muhammad, on the other hand, usurped Christ's position as the messenger from God by declaring he was the FINAL prophet. It would seem that Muhammad is the antic-Christ in arrogating to himself the position that Jesus occupied. Jesus was warning us about Muhammad.


We really differ on this. Whereas Paul may have replicated Jesus teaching on love, he also taught things that Jesus himself never seems to have taught. Things like blood-atoning human sacrifice, and Jesus having a pre-exsiting "first born or all Creation" state of being.

I see Mohammad as a corrective prophet of God, ignoring the institution of blood sacrifice altogether, and explicitly stating that "God is not begotten, nor does He beget". And He has no (literal) Son, but rather He is uniquely One.

Muslims honor Jesus as a prophet, but where I differ with Islam is their cultural insularity, (prayers only in Arabic only, the Lunar Calendar etc) their theocratic inclinations (Sharia), and the notion that Mohammad is the final prophet. Also, their refusal to acknowledge the name "YHVH" as the name of the God of Abraham.

Also the whole idea of "Jinns" seems strange to me, and a bit superstitious. Other than that, Islam seems a quite Deistic, Monotheistic religion. A frequent refrain in the Qur'an is "These are signs for thinking men". An appeal to reason, based on the observation of nature.

Islam may not have progressed too far beyond authoritarian and sometimes extremist applications, (as can be seen in many headlines) but in it's conception it seems quite benevolent and yes, even enlightening.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 59: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:31 am
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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[Replying to post 58 by Elijah John]

Quote:
We really differ on this. Whereas Paul may have replicated Jesus teaching on love, he also taught things that Jesus himself never seems to have taught. Things like blood-atoning human sacrifice, and Jesus having a pre-exsiting "first born or all Creation" state of being.

I see Mohammad as a corrective prophet of God, ignoring the institution of blood sacrifice altogether, and explicitly stating that "God is not begotten, nor does He beget". And He has no (literal) Son, but rather He is uniquely One.

Muslims honor Jesus as a prophet,


I agree with you on all these truths. Christians usually don't believe in these.
Can you share as to how you happen to come to believe in these concepts? I really appreciate it.

Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 60: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:53 am
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?

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[Replying to post 58 by Elijah John]

Quote:
but where I differ with Islam is their cultural insularity(1), (prayers only in Arabic only (2), the Lunar Calendar etc)(3) their theocratic inclinations (Sharia) (4), and the notion that Mohammad is the final prophet(5). Also, their refusal to acknowledge the name "YHVH" as the name of the God (6) of Abraham.

Also the whole idea of "Jinns"(7) seems strange to me, and a bit superstitious.

cultural insularity

Quran/Islam/Muhammad give no teachings to observe cultural insularity. The followers of Isam avoid "Shirk" making associates of Allah, yet adherents of other religions and even non-religions are to be respected. Islam introduces/advocates no specific culture.
prayers only in Arabic

I understand that in Turkey, some Muslims perform prayers in Turkish or other local languages. There is no restriction on it but we prefer to perform it in Arabic. It is not difficult to learn the translation as the set wording is not lengthy.
Lunar Calendar

The lunar calendar is for the religious events, otherwise, any calendar is OK. And there is a wisdom in it.

theocratic inclinations (Sharia)

Apart from the private affairs in all the secular matters, the law of the land is to be followed, there is a specific commandment in Quran for this.

Mohammad is the final prophet

Final in rank, otherwise in principle prophets could come, but such prophets follow Quran.

the name "YHVH"

The attributes of God are important, otherwise, any good name of God is acknowledged, if His attributes are the same as of Allah mentioned in Quran.

"Jinns"

No mythical/superstitious spirits/ghosts/apparitions are in fact in Islam.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_3.html

This is in brief, more could be discussed, please.
Regards

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