Are all sins equal?

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:06 pm

Given the events of the last year is it wrong to condemn all lawless violence, and acceptable to permit some forms of lawless violence while viewing other forms of lawless violence as absolutely unacceptable to the exclusion of all other forms of lawless violence?

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:14 am

ttruscott wrote: People being created with an equal ability and opportunity to chose to accept GOD or to reject HIM does not necessarily mean any differences in choice must be due to randomness and not preference unless our lives were also perfectly equal which is not yet proven.

We were created equal, that means same preference.

Yes, this is my contention. 100% success rate is possible without any logical contradiction.

And yet the success rate is not 100%, you have a problem of evil. The logic here is trivial:

1) If God then 100% success rate. (premise 1)
2) Less than 100% success rate. (premise 2)
3) Therefore not God. (Modus tollens)

Premise 1 is true because, God wants 100% success rate, he is omnipotent and can achieve anything that is possible without any logical contradiction. 100% success rate is possible without any logical contradiction.

Premise 2 is trivially true with the existence of the non-elected.

Conclusion follows inescapably.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:12 pm

Bust Nak wrote:
ttruscott wrote: People being created with an equal ability and opportunity to chose to accept GOD or to reject HIM does not necessarily mean any differences in choice must be due to randomness and not preference unless our lives were also perfectly equal which is not yet proven.
We were created equal, that means same preference.

I claimed GOD created us with an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or evil, not to have the same preferences...I also claim we were created tabla rasa with no preferences at all...

Yes, this is my contention. 100% success rate is possible without any logical contradiction.
And yet the success rate is not 100%, you have a problem of evil. The logic here is trivial:

1) If God then 100% success rate. (premise 1)
2) Less than 100% success rate. (premise 2)
3) Therefore not God. (Modus tollens)

Premise 1 is true because, God wants 100% success rate, he is omnipotent and can achieve anything that is possible without any logical contradiction. 100% success rate is possible without any logical contradiction.

Premise 1 is false because nowhere do I contend and you have not proven that GOD wanted a fake holiness by HIS omnipotence because HIS omnipotence cannot create holiness, only a faked holiness...no one can be holy by HIS omnipotence because true holiness can only arise from a free will, not a forced will.

To say HIS omnipotence can create holiness is a contradiction of terms just like a married bachelor.

Conclusion follows inescapably.

Conclusion does not follow from a false premise...

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:53 am

ttruscott wrote: I claimed GOD created us with an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or evil, not to have the same preferences...I also claim we were created tabla rasa with no preferences at all...

I know, and that's why I said it's random. They were created equal with no preference and still ended up picking different options.

Premise 1 is false because nowhere do I contend and you have not proven that GOD wanted a fake holiness by HIS omnipotence because HIS omnipotence cannot create holiness, only a faked holiness...no one can be holy by HIS omnipotence because true holiness can only arise from a free will, not a forced will.

I don't need to proven "that GOD wanted a fake holiness by HIS omnipotence because HIS omnipotence cannot create holiness..." I have never implied such a thing. You said 100% success rate was possible without contradiction. That along with omnipotence is enough to seal premise 1.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:34 pm

Bust Nak wrote:
ttruscott wrote: I claimed GOD created us with an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or evil, not to have the same preferences...I also claim we were created tabla rasa with no preferences at all...
I know, and that's why I said it's random. They were created equal with no preference and still ended up picking different options.

They only made the choice after a lifetime of coming to maturity and developing their own characters by responding to life as they thought best...nothing random nor programmed about it.

Bust Nak wrote:
Premise 1 is false because nowhere do I contend and you have not proven that GOD wanted a fake holiness by HIS omnipotence because HIS omnipotence cannot create holiness, only a faked holiness...no one can be holy by HIS omnipotence because true holiness can only arise from a free will, not a forced will.
I don't need to proven "that GOD wanted a fake holiness by HIS omnipotence because HIS omnipotence cannot create holiness..." I have never implied such a thing. You said 100% success rate was possible without contradiction. That along with omnipotence is enough to seal premise 1.

100% holiness was possible without omnipotence because every created person WAS CREATED WITH THE ABILITY AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE TO BE HOLY!!!

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:08 am

ttruscott wrote: They only made the choice after a lifetime of coming to maturity and developing their own characters by responding to life as they thought best... nothing random nor programmed about it.

Why would you think that?! The difference in our final choice, plus everything that lead up to that point, including our individual character, is 100% the result of our circumstances, given we had, according to you completely identical starting point. Our circumstances are either random or programmed (or a mixture there of,) and since you are ruling out programmed, that leaves random.

We don't control what our character or what our preference is. Are you disputing that?

100% holiness was possible without omnipotence because every created person WAS CREATED WITH THE ABILITY AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE TO BE HOLY!!!

Exactly, 100% holiness was possible was possible, but still not everyone ended up with 100% holiness, therefore we can rule an omnipotent God out. That's as simple as it get and is the problem of evil in a nut shell. What exactly are you having problems with? Let me break it down some more, let "100% success" mean all of us with 100% holiness:

1) God wants 100% success. (premise 1)
2) God can achieve everything that does not involve contradictions. (premise 2)
3) 100% success does not involve contradictions. (premise 3)
4) If God wants something and can achieve that thing, then it will happen. (premise 4)
5) It is not the case that 100% success. (premise 5)

6) God can achieve 100% success. (instantiation of 2 with 3)
7) God wants 100% success and can achieve 100% success. (conjunction 1 and 6)
8) 100% success. (Modus ponens 4 and 7)
9) Contradiction (5 and 8)
10) Therefore one or more of the above premises are false.

I doubt you would argue against step 6 to 10, so which of the premises would you say is/are false?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:57 am

Bust Nak wrote:Our circumstances are either random or programmed (or a mixture there of,) and since you are ruling out programmed, that leaves random.

Wait, now we are talking about our circumstances, not our choices?

Our choices were definitely NOT programmed but if my claim is true that we had an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or bad, then it seems obvious that GOD must have had us each be involved in the full gamut of available scenarios with each other so that each of us had a full opportunity to develop what we liked and disliked as much as anyone else.

If we started as tabla rasa we could have developed our likes and dislikes over the time of our maturing. We ail had time to slowly experience all we needed to gain a feeling for our likes and dislikes so we were ready to chose for HIM or against HIM. Our circumstances were not random but carefully chosen to stimulate our self awareness about how we felt about the others, NOT TO COERCE US to choose one way or the other.

If we all did not have a complete experience of maturing by small incremental choices to be attracted to both good or evil, then I would contend that HE failed in HIS love for us.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:02 pm

ttruscott wrote: Wait, now we are talking about our circumstances, not our choices?

No, we are still talking about choices, I just raised the point that our choices is 100% the direct result of our circumstances, since out our choices are expressions of our preferences, and our preferences is 100% the direct result of our circumstances.

Our choices were definitely NOT programmed but if my claim is true that we had an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or bad, then it seems obvious that GOD must have had us each be involved in the full gamut of available scenarios with each other so that each of us had a full opportunity to develop what we liked and disliked as much as anyone else.

If we started as tabla rasa we could have developed our likes and dislikes over the time of our maturing. We ail had time to slowly experience all we needed to gain a feeling for our likes and dislikes so we were ready to chose for HIM or against HIM. Our circumstances were not random but carefully chosen to stimulate our self awareness about how we felt about the others, NOT TO COERCE US to choose one way or the other.

If we all did not have a complete experience of maturing by small incremental choices to be attracted to both good or evil, then I would contend that HE failed in HIS love for us.

I am granting you all that and the point is still the same:

Given the an equal ability and opportunity to chose good or bad.
Given involvement in a full gamut of available scenarios with each other.
Given an equal opportunity to develop what we liked and disliked.
Given the same start as tabla rasa.
Given the time to slowly experience all we needed to gain a feeling for our likes and dislikes until we were ready.
Given our non-random circumstances that were carefully chosen to stimulate our self awareness about how we felt about the others.
Given a complete experience of maturing by small incremental choices to be attracted to both good or evil.

We would all, without fail, have chosen a holy marriage with God. However that didn't happen. You are trying to explain the different outcome as the result of difference in likes and dislikes, but why would there be a difference in likes and dislikes in the first place, given we were all created equal and put through the same development experiences?

And all that is just a different aspect of the same underlying complain, it's a variation of the same old problem of evil.