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paarsurrey1
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:03 am  Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War? Reply with quote

Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War?

"In order for them* to generate support beyond their small group, they have to latch onto universal symbols, and this is where Islam becomes a target of convenience for them," says Nyang

People combine pieces of verse from the Koran and use it to justify their actions, says Khouj. "But to understand the full meaning of the verse," he says, "you have to read the one before it, the one after it, maybe five to six verses to get the full picture."

The "full picture" of Islam and the Koran, say Khouj and Nyang, is captured by Chapter 5, Verse 32: "[I]f anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html
* The terrorists

One may like to read the full article titled "Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say" by Peter Standring, National Geographic Today, September 25, 2001

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:54 am
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Re: Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War?

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Bust Nak wrote:

Then you should be preaching "civil disobedience" instead of "justification of violence." You are justifying the shooting cartoonists as a mere less preferable alternative to civil disobedience.

To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience.

The ideal is to do it for the right reason to promote justice or truth or righteousness.

Otherwise civil disobedience is just being a criminal.

And even when civil disobedience is done ideally as non violent and for the right reason - then the person is still being a criminal by breaking the law.

The religion of Islam teaches peace, and in fact it teaches aggressive demands for peace, but it is the USA (and puppet allies) who attacked Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria and Somalia and threatens other Muslim Countries, so all people have their own right to self defense against the violent aggressor.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:08 am
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Re: Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War?

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JP Cusick wrote:

To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience.

Yes, and it covers things like protests, chaining yourselves to trees, or blocking the streets. Not shooting people!

Quote:
And even when civil disobedience is done ideally as non violent and for the right reason - then the person is still being a criminal by breaking the law.

That's not just ideally done. Civil disobedience implies non-violent. The moment you resort to violence you are no longer just practicing civil disobedience and have become just a criminal.

Quote:
The religion of Islam teaches peace, and in fact it teaches aggressive demands for peace, but it is the USA (and puppet allies) who attacked Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria and Somalia and threatens other Muslim Countries, so all people have their own right to self defense against the violent aggressor.

Self defense does not extend to shooting cartoonists.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:12 pm
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[Replying to post 20 by Bust Nak]

Quote:
creating disorder in the land


Friend JP Cusick has cleared it:

One aspect of "creating disorder in the land" is:
Quote:
"To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience."

Please
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:34 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

One aspect of "creating disorder in the land" is:
Quote:
"To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience."

Are you sure you want to go there? You've just suggested execution is one acceptable way of dealing with non-violent protestors for "creating disorder in the land."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:15 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:

One aspect of "creating disorder in the land" is:
Quote:
"To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience."

Are you sure you want to go there? You've just suggested execution is one acceptable way of dealing with non-violent protestors for "creating disorder in the land."

How, please? I don't get it.
Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:42 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:

To disobey the civil law = that is civil disobedience.

Yes, and it covers things like protests, chaining yourselves to trees, or blocking the streets. Not shooting people!

If we are just going by timid American interpretation of Christianity then that is not my sphere.

In the USA we civilians have the option of a 2nd Amendment solution.

When the government is corrupt and the Police do not properly protect the population - then every citizen including citizens of any religion has the right to use any means available in their self defense, and that includes shooting the aggressors or the perpetrators.

Thereby the citizen is acting as a Police officer or peace officer by shooting and killing a criminal who poses as a continuing threat, and for that God has given His blessing to the Police = police by any person performing that act.

Bust Nak wrote:

Self defense does not extend to shooting cartoonists.

It was the lawful and Godly act for the Police to arrest the cartoonist and to prosecute them and to put a stop to the cartoons.

But the laws are corrupt in that regard and immoral, so the Police failed in that regard, and thereafter the citizens have their 2nd Amendment solution.

I myself would not have done that - but I understand why other people would do that job of policing the cartoonists.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:46 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

How, please? I don't get it.


The Quran says:

The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land is only this that they be slain or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.

You say:

One aspect of "creating disorder in the land" is civil disobedience.

Combined your clarification with the Quran, you get:

The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to practice civil disobedience is only this that they be slain or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.

Since non-violent protest is a form of civil disobedience:

The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive for non violent protest is only this that they be slain or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.

There are one of several options listed, one of which is execution, highlighted in red. Hence my comment: execution is one acceptable way of dealing with non-violent protestors for "creating disorder in the land." Is that clear enough?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:37 am
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Re: Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War?

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[Replying to post 22 by Bust Nak]
Quote:
Bust Nak
Self defense does not extend to shooting cartoonists.


Quran is clear that a person deriding or ridiculing religion or religious personalities is not to be killed as this subject is separately discussed:

[4:137] O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger, and the Book which He revealed before it. And whoso disbelieves in Allah and His angels, and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely strayed far away.
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
[4:139] Give to the hypocrites the tidings that for them is a grievous punishment,
[4:140] Those who take disbelievers for friends rather than believers. Do they seek honour at their hands? Then let them remember that all honour belongs to Allah.
[4:141] And He has already revealed to you in the Book that, when you hear the Signs of Allah being denied and mocked at, sit not with them until they engage in a talk other than that; for in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allah will assemble the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell, all together;
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=4&verse=140

Those who deride religion or the religious personalities are not to be killed, their punishment is in the hereafter, not in this world. If there is going on a discussion/debate or dialogue or some other social meeting/activity, the Muslims are advised to temporarily suspend that process till such time they again become serious and refrain from their derision or ridicule spree/spell/mood.
Some people here also do such things, so I go a step backward and don't respond to such derision or ridicule and resume that in some other-way so that they don't indulged in it. Please
Regards

_________
The cartoonists who persist on such acts as a matter of policy , however, could be tried in the courts if the remedy is available in the law of the land in the West, these days*.

Quote:
*JP Cusick Post 26
It was the lawful and Godly act for the Police to arrest the cartoonist and to prosecute them and to put a stop to the cartoons.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:12 am
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

Quran is clear that a person deriding or ridiculing religion or religious personalities is not to be killed as this subject is separately discussed...

Those who deride religion or the religious personalities are not to be killed, their punishment is in the hereafter, not in this world.

I am not seeing it. All it says is don't sit with those who mock Islam until they stop mocking, and they will be punished in the hereafter. That doesn't imply they are not to be also punished in this world, punishment that may include execution.

Quote:
The cartoonists who persist on such acts as a matter of policy , however, could be tried in the courts if the remedy is available in the law of the land in the West, these days*.

Quote:
*JP Cusick Post 26
It was the lawful and Godly act for the Police to arrest the cartoonist and to prosecute them and to put a stop to the cartoons.

You obviously think they should be punished in this world too, just not killed out right. Besides, don't just tell me, tell JP Cusick - he is the one who says cartoonists can be killed outside of the law.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:37 am
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Bust Nak wrote:

JP Cusick - he is the one who says cartoonists can be killed outside of the law.

What I really say is that the laws and government has its responsibility to protect and defend the citizens from trouble makers and criminals.

So when the government and the laws fail to do their task - then the citizens have their own right to defend their self.

The Police failed to arrest or prosecute the cartoonist - so the citizens have the right to become a citizens' police force.

And we can see now that the cartoonist have been silenced by righteousness, because the law has thereby been rightly revised.

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