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marco
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:03 pm  Is religion at the root of present day atrocities? Reply with quote

In Manchester, England, we had a suicide bomber murder 22 people, many of them children. As usual the perpetrator was a Muslim and as usual we are reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. But it spawns people to murder innocent folk, usually with the pointless observation that Allah is great.

It is possible to leaf through the Koran and find verses that justify cruelty and we can also find verses that condemn it.

Is there an answer to this never ending circle of violence?
Does the problem reside with values that belong to a barbaric age?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 71: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:43 am
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marco wrote:

The Israelis stole no land. Those with authority put them there, as had long been promised.

It does not matter much as to who authorized stealing the land - what matters is that the land of Palestine was stolen, and occupied by the invaders.

The modern State of Israel is a religiously bigoted State based on a misguided view of Judaism.

The modern State of Israel is also a racist State, again based on a misguided view of Judaism.

If we look honestly at this thread topic - then it is the Jewish State which is the one (1) religion which is most responsible for the present day atrocities throughout the middle east, and carried over to the USA.

In honesty I must add that the British and American support for the Jewish State is based on a misguided interpretation of the Bible by Christianity, and according to Christianity the Jewish people are to be mostly killed and destroyed by the returning Christ of Christianity, so the entire basis of the Jewish State is a sickening perversion of religion, along with the sickening racist and religious bigotry against the Palestinians and against the great religion of Islam.

Blaming the Arabs and the Muslims for the atrocities is another injustice based on the above realities.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 72: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:22 am
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JP Cusick wrote:




The modern State of Israel is a religiously bigoted State based on a misguided view of Judaism.


The Palestinians enjoyed an exemplary status when they lived with the Israelis. They would not and are not accorded such comfort elsewhere in the Arab world; they are not wanted.

I have boundless admiration for the Israelis, whose country is the only democracy in that hellish region. They have shown admirable restraint under terrible provocation and when attacked they responded correctly. I notice you ignore the savagery of Hamas, who keep the Palestinians in check. It is sad that evil propaganda is so easily digested by some Western commentators. You will know, of course, that the Arabs welcomed Hitler and his brutality. That tells us everything. It also shows how wrong you are.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 73: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:16 pm
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marco wrote:

The Palestinians enjoyed an exemplary status when they lived with the Israelis. They would not and are not accorded such comfort elsewhere in the Arab world; they are not wanted.

The Palestinians have been pushed out of their land and when the Palestinians are pushed out then the Jewish State sends in new Jewish settlers and create new fortified settlements to occupy and steal the land - that is the reality.

And it is not that the Arab Countries do not want the Palestinians - because if the Palestinians move into Arab Countries then they loose their land of Palestine forever, so yes the surrounding Countries resist the push of the Palestinians into Arab Countries because they are trying to stop or slow down the land from being completely stolen by the Jewish State.

marco wrote:

I have boundless admiration for the Israelis, whose country is the only democracy in that hellish region.

It is not really a democracy because it is a Jewish State - and that Jewish occupation is what makes it as hellish.

It gives preference to the Jewish race against any non Jewish person, so it is a racist State.

And it gives preference to the Jewish religion which thereby makes it a religiously bigoted State.

marco wrote:

You will know, of course, that the Arabs welcomed Hitler and his brutality. That tells us everything. It also shows how wrong you are.

It is odd that the Jewish people make that outrageous claim that the Arabs supported Hitler when there was no persecution of the Jews under any Arab control.

They blame the Arabs for what Nazi Germany did - and bigoted people accept that lie.

If they are stealing the land because of them being allied with Hitler - then why are they not stealing the German land? and in France there was real help to the Nazis which never happened under Arab control, or steal Italy's land? and there were supporters of anti Judaism in the USA, and it was far more severe anti Judaism in the USA then there ever was in Arab Countries - but no - the unjust claim is that some how the Palestinians have to pay and be dispossessed of their homeland based on their support of Hitler when there was no support of any merit.

I even see it as noteworthy that the Palestinians are Semitic people too, so being anti Semitic includes being anti Palestinian too - that would be if any one were interested in the truth.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 74: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:43 am
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JP Cusick wrote:





They blame the Arabs for what Nazi Germany did - and bigoted people accept that lie.

If they are stealing the land because of them being allied with Hitler - then why are they not stealing the German land?


There is no question of stealing land; after the war borders were somewhat artificially defined, and Jews had little say in the matter except to accept what they had long been promised. Israel was triply attacked and defended herself well, capturing large tracts of land which, dutifully, she gave up to her own cost.

You may want to read about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, to check on his dealings with Hitler. Some truths are inconvenient. After the Entebbe raid to rescue their countrymen the Israelis incredibly got some condemnation for invading Ugandan air space. In the eyes of some they can do nothing right. God owes them a few favours, I think. Judaism certainly offers no threat in our world today whereas Islam does.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 75: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:32 pm
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In reply to the OP religion is not the root of the present day atrocities. Religion is in the mix but the real root is the blowback following decades of neo-colonial intervention across the middle East and Africa. It goes hand in hand with the Western support of various dictatorships, Western backed coups, the deliberate stirring of conflict, maintaining military bases across the region, war and all this sprinkled with a heaving dusting of hypocrisy.

Here is a list of countries bombed by the US and sometimes their allies since 1945 in the Islamic sphere of influence.
    Afghanistan
    Iraq
    Kuwait
    Lebanon
    Libya
    Pakistan
    Somalia
    Sudan
    Syria
    Yemen
To this list add another list of interventions, coups and assassinations by the West and countries attacked by Israel. Then there is the fact that many of these countries remain poor and civil life is fraught and uncertain. Nearly all this is down to Western hegemony in the region and the major motive for that is controlling oil and trade but by far oil is the major motivation.

Given that history to complain that some Muslims fight dirty and some interpret their scripture to justify violence is missing the point I think.

In short there would be no Islamic motivated terrorism on the streets of Europe and the US if there were no oil under the middle East. The root is black and found under the ground.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 76: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:02 pm
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Furrowed Brow wrote:


In reply to the OP religion is not the root of the present day atrocities.


Good to know. I wonder why terrorists shout God is great. Is this a political slogan?

Furrowed Brow wrote:


Here is a list of countries bombed by the US and sometimes their allies since 1945 in the Islamic sphere of influence.
Afghanistan
Iraq
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Pakistan
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Yemen


Simplistic stuff. Hell could readily be declared as any of the above places. Read some of the literature on Afghanistan's primitive religious practices and one would wish God revived his Sodom and Gomorrah policy. To be fair, Somalia helps her economy greatly by using piracy. She is I think 100% Muslim and a morass of war.

Furrowed Brow wrote:


Given that history to complain that some Muslims fight dirty and some interpret their scripture to justify violence is missing the point I think.


I would guess the killers are too thick to be interested in history, save for the doctors who tried to murder a party of schoolchildren: they were just serving God. Given not "history" but that way of seeing things, one can pretend to understand the murder of innocent people on streets of civilised cities. Perhaps envy and spite, as well as religion, play a part.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 77: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:07 pm
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marco wrote:

Simplistic stuff.

Not as simplistic as pointedly asking why Islamic terrorists cry God is great. Shocked

A brief adumbration of a complicated picture of Western intervention and hegemony to explain Islamic terrorism on Western Streets is not really simplistic is it? But no doubt things are more complicated not less complicated. I don't see how insisting religion is the root makes the explanation more nuanced. True I did boil it down to simple economic driving force - oil. Without the oil the imperialism would have been considerably less and the asymmetry of the injustice would not be set as it now is.

marco wrote:
Hell could readily be declared as any of the above places. Read some of the literature on Afghanistan's primitive religious practices and one would wish God revived his Sodom and Gomorrah policy. To be fair, Somalia helps her economy greatly by using piracy. She is I think 100% Muslim and a morass of war.

Medieval practices in Afghanstan and Somali piracy do not explain or come anywhere near explaining islamic terrorism in the West.

I suggest the research hand writings of Scott Atran.(University of Michigan and Director of Research in Anthropology at the Centre National de la Recherché Scientifique). In addition to writing the occasional newspaper article he has years of research interviewing terrorists and collecting data on terrorism. This 2007 video of a lecture by Atran is useful I think.


Atran has the data to address the question as to how many madras have been involved in terrorism and the religiosity of the terrorists and the answer as a percentage of the total number is very few. This video is from 2007 but out of 60,000 madrases 15 had been involved in violence.

Here is an interesting point at 6:04 - religious education is inversely proportional to being involved in violent Jihad. It is a negative predictor of being radicalised in prison.

He points out some other interesting data and how their is no command and control and self radicalisation happens through loose groups often focused on soccer buddies and internet cafes not madrases. Worth a watch and following up if you hold strong opinions on the subject.

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