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paarsurrey1
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:03 pm  Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War? Reply with quote

Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War?

"In order for them* to generate support beyond their small group, they have to latch onto universal symbols, and this is where Islam becomes a target of convenience for them," says Nyang

People combine pieces of verse from the Koran and use it to justify their actions, says Khouj. "But to understand the full meaning of the verse," he says, "you have to read the one before it, the one after it, maybe five to six verses to get the full picture."

The "full picture" of Islam and the Koran, say Khouj and Nyang, is captured by Chapter 5, Verse 32: "[I]f anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html
* The terrorists

One may like to read the full article titled "Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say" by Peter Standring, National Geographic Today, September 25, 2001

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:44 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:

The "full picture" of Islam and the Koran, say Khouj and Nyang, is captured by Chapter 5, Verse 32: "[I]f anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."

The problem here is that "spreading mischief in the land" is not specific. Insulting Islam for example, qualifies as spreading mischief and is justification for slewing someone.


Al-fitnah (Arabic) or "spreading mischief in the land" has been truthfully explained in Quran in many a verse, I quote one such verse here:

[8:39] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past will be forgiven them; and if they return thereto, then verily, the example of the former peoples has already gone before them.
[8:40] And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=8&verse=39

"spreading mischief in the land" is "persecution" in the verse/s. Right, please?
Regards

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:11 am
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[Replying to post 31 by paarsurrey1]

Not sure how that is helping your case. Sure, spreading mischief in the land can mean persecution. It's not clear what count and does not count as persecution. And it says to fight us until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah right there, that's the very opposite of peace.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:10 am
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Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 31 by paarsurrey1]

Not sure how that is helping your case. Sure, spreading mischief in the land can mean persecution. It's not clear what count and does not count as persecution. And it says to fight us until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah right there, that's the very opposite of peace.

Quote:
us


Quran verse [8:40]* addresses the Meccans who were persecuting Muslims, had burnt their houses, tortured them physically, not allowing Muslims to pray in congregation as per their religion, Muhammad and his companions were boycotted and restricted to an area for three years, not even allowing them access to food and were forced to migrate leaving their properties and valuable behind:

"Most of these slave-converts remained steadfast in outer as well as inner
professions of faith. But some were weak. Once the Holy Prophet found ‘Ammar
groaning with pain and drying his tears. Approached by the Prophet, ‘Ammar said he had been beaten and compelled to recant. The Prophet asked him, "But did you believe at heart?" ‘Ammar declared that he did, and the Prophet said that God would forgive his weakness.

‘Ammar’s father, Yasir, and his mother, Sumayyah, also were tormented by
disbelievers. On one such occasion the Prophet happened to pass by. Filled with
emotion, he said, "Family of Yasir, bear up patiently, for God has prepared for you a Paradise." The prophetic words were soon fulfilled. Yasir succumbed to the tortures, and a little later Abu Jahl murdered his aged wife, Sumayyah, with a spear.

Zinnirah, a woman slave, lost her eyes under the cruel treatment of disbelievers. Abu Fukayh, Safwan bin Umayyah’s slave, was laid on hot sand while over his chest were placed heavy and hot stones, under pain of which his tongue dropped out. Other slaves were mishandled in similar ways." :

One may like to read more from "Introduction to the Study of the Holy Quran"
Page 121 of 346
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

Regards

__________
[8:39] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past will be forgiven them; and if they return thereto, then verily, the example of the former peoples has already gone before them.
*[8:40] And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=8&verse=39

"spreading mischief in the land" is "persecution" in the verse/s

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:46 pm
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[Replying to post 33 by paarsurrey1]

Okay, but is the persecution in question limited only to burning houses, torture, banning from congregation and exile? The part where you are to fight disbelievers until "religion is wholly for Allah" is particular troubling.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:12 am
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Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 33 by paarsurrey1]

Okay, but is the persecution in question limited only to burning houses, torture, banning from congregation and exile? The part where you are to fight disbelievers until "religion is wholly for Allah" is particular troubling.


Thanks for agreeing for the first part regarding"persecution". The Meccans persecuted Muslims because of their religion. They neither allowed Muslims to believe as per Muslims' faith nor allowed them to practice according to their religion:

"The slaves who believed came from all communities. Bilal was a negro, Suhaib a Greek. They belonged to different faiths. Jabr and Suhaib were Christians, Bilal and ‘Ammar, idol-worshippers. Bilal was made to lie on hot sand, loaded with stones, and boys were made to dance on his chest, and his master, Umayyah bin Khalf, tortured him thus and then asked him to renounce Allah and the Prophet and sing the praises of the Meccan gods, Lat and ‘Uzza. Bilal only said, Ahad, Ahad … (God is One).

Exasperated, Umayyah handed Bilal over to street boys, asking them to put a
cord round his neck and drag him through the town over sharp stones. Bilal’s body bled, but he went on muttering, Ahad, Ahad… Later, when Muslims settled in Medina and were able to live and worship in comparative peace, the Holy Prophet appointed Bilal a Mu’adhdhin, the official who calls the worshippers to prayers. Being an African, Bilal missed the (h), in the Arabic Ash-hadu (I bear witness). Medinite believers laughed at his defective pronunciation, but the Prophet rebuked them and told them how dear Bilal was to God for the stout faith he showed under Meccan tortures. Abu Bakr paid ransom for Bilal and many other slaves and secured their release.

Among them was Suhaib, a prosperous merchant, whom the Quraysh continued to belabour even after his release. When the Holy Prophet left Mecca to settle down in Medina, Suhaib wanted to go with him. But the Meccans stopped him. He could not take away from Mecca, they said, the wealth he had earned in Mecca. Suhaib offered to surrender all his property and earnings and asked whether they would then let him go. The Meccans accepted the arrangement. Suhaib reached Medina empty-handed and saw the Prophet, who heard him and congratulated him, saying, "This was the best bargain of your life." Unquote

Page 120 of 346 "Introduction to the Study of The Holy Quran"
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

It is One-True-God who has allowed freedom of religion to every human being as per the scheme of life and purpose of life set and designed by Him. This is what has been described in the verse "religion is wholly for Allah". Meccans usurped this right of the Muslims.
To restore freedom of religion which is an established human right has been mentioned in verse* of Quran. As is the first part eradication of "persecution" a justified norm so was the second part "freedom of religion" or "religion is wholly for Allah" also a justified norm. Right, please?

Regards

_________
[8:39] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past will be forgiven them; and if they return thereto, then verily, the example of the former peoples has already gone before them.
*[8:40] And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=8&verse=39

"spreading mischief in the land" is "persecution" in the verse/s

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:07 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

It is One-True-God who has allowed freedom of religion to every human being as per the scheme of life and purpose of life set and designed by Him. This is what has been described in the verse "religion is wholly for Allah". Meccans usurped this right of the Muslims.
To restore freedom of religion which is an established human right has been mentioned in verse* of Quran. As is the first part eradication of "persecution" a justified norm so was the second part "freedom of religion" or "religion is wholly for Allah" also a justified norm. Right, please?

Not according to the document you sent me, the main reason for the persecution against Muslim was because your Muhammad spoke against idol worship, and after the conquest of Mecca, destroyed the local religion.

I found this article, seems to do a much better job in defending religious freedom than you are.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 37: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:16 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:

It is One-True-God who has allowed freedom of religion to every human being as per the scheme of life and purpose of life set and designed by Him. This is what has been described in the verse "religion is wholly for Allah". Meccans usurped this right of the Muslims.
To restore freedom of religion which is an established human right has been mentioned in verse* of Quran. As is the first part eradication of "persecution" a justified norm so was the second part "freedom of religion" or "religion is wholly for Allah" also a justified norm. Right, please?

Not according to the document you sent me, the main reason for the persecution against Muslim was because your Muhammad spoke against idol worship, and after the conquest of Mecca, destroyed the local religion.

I found this article, seems to do a much better job in defending religious freedom than you are.


Quote:
the main reason for the persecution against Muslim was because your Muhammad spoke against idol worship


Muhammad and his followers did speak openly of Oneness of God and that was what they sincerely believed. Why deny Muhammad and his followers the human rights of "free speech", "free-will" and "freedom of religion", please?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 38: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:40 pm
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[Replying to post 37 by paarsurrey1]

Speaking out is one thing, breaking their idols is quite another.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 39: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:01 pm
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Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 37 by paarsurrey1]

Speaking out is one thing, breaking their idols is quite another.


No idols were broken by Muhammad and or his followers while they lived with the Meccans, please. Right, please

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 40: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:26 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

No idols were broken by Muhammad and or his followers while they lived with the Meccans, please. Right, please.

While they lived with the Meccans as in before the conquest of Mecca? I said after the conquest of Mecca.

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