JESUS IS NOT YHWH

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

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Post #291

Post by paarsurrey1 »

Marco -Post 289
In the case of interpreting who Jesus was, we go to the source material, the New Testament, and it is possible to take Christ as indicating to Peter that he was God.
Jesus neither wrote nor he dictated any scripture, so the one named "New Testament" is not a source document. It is a Pauline-Christianity scripture and does not contain teachings given by Jesus but the teachings that are against the teachings of Jesus.

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Post #292

Post by marco »

paarsurrey1 wrote:
Marco -Post 289
In the case of interpreting who Jesus was, we go to the source material, the New Testament, and it is possible to take Christ as indicating to Peter that he was God.
Jesus neither wrote nor he dictated any scripture, so the one named "New Testament" is not a source document. It is a Pauline-Christianity scripture and does not contain teachings given by Jesus but the teachings that are against the teachings of Jesus.

Regards

Your doubts would be reasonable if they were backed up authoritatively. Of course we can theorize about Paul and about NT accounts but let's not assert our claims as facts. We can even say Jesus cut his hand on a saw. Who can deny it?

The things that you invent don't come from the NT, where we get our information about Jesus, such as it is. So your information is even less reliable than what we already have.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #293

Post by paarsurrey1 »

[Replying to post 279 by onewithhim]
I refer you to Acts 9:1-15. Jesus called Paul "a chosen vessel." Remember, your Quran says that these Scriptures were given to mankind by Allah.
Kindly quote the verse of Quran with the verses in the context, that is some preceding verses and some following verse to understand them correctly , please.

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Post #294

Post by Danmark »

onewithhim wrote: Beautiful scriptures that give us hope of never-ending life on this awesome planet:
....
Then there's this:
God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:
"The Lord said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the Earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.' " (Job 2:3 New Revised Standard Bible)

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him:
"You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
"And in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking a place of their own where they might settle, because they had not yet come into an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. . . . Then they said to [the priest], 'Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful.' The priest answered them, 'Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval.' . . . Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a people at peace and secure. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. . . . The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there." (Judges 18:1–28 NIV)

Babies are slaughtered and wives raped:
"See, the day of the Lord is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

A mixed-race couple is murdered by a godly priest to keep God's people pure.
"Just then one of the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman into his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the Israelites. When Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he got up and left the congregation. Taking a spear in his hand, he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. So the plague was stopped among the people of Israel. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the Israelites by manifesting such zeal among them on my behalf that in my jealousy I did not consume the Israelites. Therefore say, "I hereby grant him my covenant of peace. It shall be for him and for his descendants after him a covenant of perpetual priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the Israelites.' '" (Numbers 25:6–13 NRSV)

A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God.
"And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: 'If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.' . . . When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! . . . After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed." (Judges 11:30–39 NIV)

The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29 King James Version)

God threatens rape, then takes credit for it.
"Hear and give ear; do not be haughty, for the Lord has spoken. . . . And if you say in your heart, 'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen." (Jeremiah 13:15–26 NRSV)

God threatens sexual molestation. The Lord will harass attractive uppity women by exposing their private parts.
"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16–17 KJV)

Perhaps the worst, along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:

"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8–9 NRSV)*




________________________
*Stolen from Dan Barker and edited

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marco
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Post #295

Post by marco »

Danmark wrote:

God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
Babies are slaughtered and wives raped

A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God

The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.


Perhaps the worst, along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:
"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8–9 NRSV)
It is impossible to read this and not despise the OT monster and the minds of those who created it.
Miraculous is the manner in which people hear and see no evil in the above which surely vies with anything wicked that the worst of men have ever done. His Quranic cousin, born of the same tales, is no better.

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Post #296

Post by JehovahsWitness »

onewithhim wrote: Beautiful scriptures that give us hope of never-ending life on this awesome planet:
....
Line ONE Indeed, Jehovah has held out a beautiful future for those that love him.


Line TWO
The fact is that the bible speaks of everlasting life for those that take in knowledge of both Him as the only true God and his son Jesus Christ.


(A two line answer)

Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #297

Post by Danmark »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
onewithhim wrote: Beautiful scriptures that give us hope of never-ending life on this awesome planet:
....
Line ONE Indeed, Jehovah has held out a beautiful future for those that love him.


Line TWO
The fact is that the bible speaks of everlasting life for those that take in knowledge of both Him as the only true God and his son Jesus Christ.


(A two line answer)
[image redacted]
Quite a contrast with the God who is recorded in the verses listed in post 293,
viewtopic.php?p=895406#895406

How can we trust a book that shows such different pictures of its 'God?'
For some of us it is not satisfying to 'simply trust and obey, for there's no other way,' particularly when the message as well as the image of this god is so contradictory.

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Post #298

Post by brianbbs67 »

Danmark wrote:
onewithhim wrote: Beautiful scriptures that give us hope of never-ending life on this awesome planet:
....
Then there's this:
God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:
"The Lord said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the Earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.' " (Job 2:3 New Revised Standard Bible)

Tanakh says near the same. 2:1 "the divine beings printed themselves before the Lord. The Adversary came along with themto present himself before the Lord. 2. The Lord sid to the Adversary,"Where have you been?" The Adversary replied,"I have been roaming all over the Earth." 3. The Lord said to the Adversary."Have you noticed My servant Job? There is none like him on earth, a blameless, and upright man who fears God and shuns evil. He still keeps his integrity; so you have incited Me against him to destroy him for no good reason." 4. The Adversary replied," --"skin for skin"--(fottnote states an old proverb that no one knows the meaning of)all that a man has he will give up for his life."

So we don't know for sure as the Proverb regarding this is unknown.

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him:
"You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)

That's not even close to the original

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
"And in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking a place of their own where they might settle, because they had not yet come into an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. . . . Then they said to [the priest], 'Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful.' The priest answered them, 'Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval.' . . . Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a people at peace and secure. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. . . . The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there." (Judges 18:1–28 NIV)

God never ordered this. Men did


Babies are slaughtered and wives raped:
"See, the day of the Lord is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

A mixed-race couple is murdered by a godly priest to keep God's people pure.
"Just then one of the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman into his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the Israelites. When Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he got up and left the congregation. Taking a spear in his hand, he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. So the plague was stopped among the people of Israel. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the Israelites by manifesting such zeal among them on my behalf that in my jealousy I did not consume the Israelites. Therefore say, "I hereby grant him my covenant of peace. It shall be for him and for his descendants after him a covenant of perpetual priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the Israelites.' '" (Numbers 25:6–13 NRSV)

They were told not to take women from these people because they were false god worshippers and temple whores. Not because of their race. Again, God did not order Phineas to do this. he did it on his own as he felt it would offend God worse. God said nothing in this matter. The people assumed at the time.


A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God.
"And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: 'If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.' . . . When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! . . . After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed." (Judges 11:30–39 NIV)

Again , God did not ask for this vow or approve it. Jephthah decided this. The Lord did nothig here either.(it is thie first example of human sacrifice in the Tanakh, you know the second?"


The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29 King James Version)

Yes, He says He will punish them for their sexaul immorality. They will be so hungry they will eat their children. A bit different.


God threatens rape, then takes credit for it.
"Hear and give ear; do not be haughty, for the Lord has spoken. . . . And if you say in your heart, 'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen." (Jeremiah 13:15–26 NRSV)

See what the JPS Tanakh says there. not the same.I trust it as it is translated once


God threatens sexual molestation. The Lord will harass attractive uppity women by exposing their private parts.
"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16–17 KJV)

It actually reads, "the Lord will uncover their heads"


Perhaps the worst,
along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:

"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8–9 NRSV)*


Even that last one was not uttered by God, but man. the long and short is , men say a lot of stuff. God says very little most hear. So, blaming God for what men have done is wrong.

________________________
*Stolen from Dan Barker and edited
T[font=Times New Roman][/font]

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Post #299

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 296 by Danmark]

Line ONE: Yes there will be a great contrast between the present wicked system of things and the new world.

Image

Line TWO Out with the old, in with the new!


(two line answer)


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #300

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Danmark wrote:
How can we trust a book that shows such different pictures of its 'God?'
For some of us it is not satisfying to 'simply trust and obey, for there's no other way,' particularly when the message as well as the image of this god is so contradictory.

Well then all I can advise is that you don't worship Him - I don't believe in forcing people to do something they are uncomfortable with.

As for me I see the God of the bible as consistently balancing out all four of His cardinal qualities and I find his personality beautiful and actions always just. Jesus is the perfect reflection of his Father, in other words, if YHWH (Jehovah) was to come to earth, he would speak and act exactly as Jesus did.

They are not the same person but their is no conflict between their personalities.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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