God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.
3 But Joab replied to the king, May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?
4 The kings word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, Davids seer: 12 Go and tell David, This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.
14 David said to Gad, I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, Enough! Withdraw your hand. The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[ttruscott]

C: The majority of Christians believe free will is an important aspect concerning salvation.

As do I...we just differ as to when we had the ability of a free will.

They ignore the cognitive dissonance created by believing opposites are true at the same time, that is, that we have a free will on earth yet we are also enslaved to sin and cannot choose good: John 8:33-36 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. and Romans 8:8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

They would rather accept a 'mystery' that is obviously contradictory than accept our pre-earth existence where we had a free will in our innocence only to lose it when we sinned and became addicted to evil.

But rather than argue theoretic theology, what about salvation being by the grace of GOD as a gift, and not from anything a man might do, ie, choose by his enslaved will?? Pretty straightforward to me. The fact that others put their faith in dissonance is not for me to scorn.

[bluethread]

When you analyze logically one small children or infant or mentally impaired man/woman/child suffering, dying cuz of God is enough.
It pretty simple:
.
Small children, infants, the mentally impaired and animals do not have the rational faculties necessary to understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law.

Therefore logic dictates they cannot be held responsible for any wrong doing and therefore punished under any circumstances whatsoever.

As you state, animals are in that group and when a human dies, or is not able to care for that animal anymore, that animal is "put down". Now, I would consider a human child as different from an animal, even if that child was similar to an animal. However, Adonai is different from a human in the opposite direction. Therefore, there is more justification for a deity to cause a child to die from disease, than for a human to "put down" an indigent animal.

God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-morally perfect; infinitely wise, just, merciful.

Therefore we would see zero small children or infants or mentally impaired people punished by God.

The problem here is the combined characteristics of omnibenevolent-morally perfect. First, I do not believe that Adonai is omnibenevolent. If you can show me where it says that in the Scriptures, I would be happy to examine that. Second, when you speak of morally perfect, I presume you mean according to either your morality, or the morality required of humans by Adonai. Well, if we are talking about your morality, I don't see why Adonai should be subject to that. If you are talking about the morality Adonai requires of men, I see that in the same way as I view what I expect of my pets. I do not live according to rules that I set for may pets and I get to decide how they are treated, because they are a dependent life form. Admittedly, I do have to answer to other humans for those actions, in a society. However, I do not have to answer to animals for my actions.

[ttruscott]

If you are talking about the morality Adonai requires of men, I see that in the same way as I view what I expect of my pets. I do not live according to rules that I set for may pets and I get to decide how they are treated, because they are a dependent life form. Admittedly, I do have to answer to other humans for those actions, in a society. However, I do not have to answer to animals for my actions.

...you do have to answer to yourself and when Adonai does this, HE is well pleased as righteous.

[bluethread]

If you are talking about the morality Adonai requires of men, I see that in the same way as I view what I expect of my pets. I do not live according to rules that I set for may pets and I get to decide how they are treated, because they are a dependent life form. Admittedly, I do have to answer to other humans for those actions, in a society. However, I do not have to answer to animals for my actions.

...you do have to answer to yourself and when Adonai does this, HE is well pleased as righteous.

Yes, but the argument is really, why doesn't Adonai do things according to the moral standards that apply to humans? Dogs probably wonder why humans don't hold themselves to their standards either. I know cats do.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 44 by bluethread]

A very interesting statement, and a good one.
Truly an all powerful creature doesn't have to worry about efficiency, so could very well have no trouble creating entire galaxies so that the Earth could have some night-lights.

Certainly our logic does not apply, in fact, in that light, our own logic may actually be insane.
On the other hand, if that is the case, there must be some understanding on his part to understand our own inadequacy.

Also, just how different is that logic? Does it make sense even for omnipotence to create galaxies for the Earth's night-light?

Then there is the hyper-view, if our bodies, minds etc., are insignificant and irrelevant to a creature like god, why would he care. Why would he stoop to our level?

It is the ant-mound in Manitoba analogy.

Imagine there are two ant mounds in Manitoba that worship you as the supreme being. One because they have worshiped you the same forever, the other because you sent your man-ant hybrid son, your only begotten ant-man to save them from their sins.

Which ant is your chosen one? Which ones are you going to bring into heaven, and which ones do you protect from Satan-ant an his pesticides of Armageddon?

[alexxcJRO]

The only answer I have been led to and which I believe solves this problem is actually obvious (once you take our conception or birth off the table as our creation) is that we lived and sinned pre-earth and some sinned and some didn't in that place and time and all sinners are sent to earth as part of their judgment, (no rehabilitative value) or as a punishment with full rehabilitative intent.

We not saved by our mental understanding. The mentally deficient and infants can be and are saved if they are under HIS promise

Q: I am confused, not all humans are born in this universe, only those that have not choose God(the goats) in the previous life?

No, there are two kinds of sinners: those who rejected YHWH totally and became the Satanic demons called goats (Matt 25:31-46 especially v41 Then he will say to those on his left [the goats], Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) and those who accepted HIS deity and became HIS elect able to be saved but who then rebelled against HIS plans for HIS creations.

Q: What rehabilitative intent, you said in the past the all those that did not choose God(the goats) in the previous life are forever lost?

The rehabilitation only applies to the elect sinners who have accepted HIS deity but rebelled against the judgement. It is described as painful discipline in Heb 12:5-11.

Two types of sinners, one for judgement, one for rehabilitation. One for destruction, one for salvation. One called goats, one called sheep.

At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life).

There you go dear sir. Your done.

[alexxcJRO]

As you state, animals are in that group and when a human dies, or is not able to care for that animal anymore, that animal is "put down". Now, I would consider a human child as different from an animal, even if that child was similar to an animal. However, Adonai is different from a human in the opposite direction. Therefore, there is more justification for a deity to cause a child to die from disease, than for a human to "put down" an indigent animal.

Irrelevant nonsense.

Moral agency is an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some notion of right and wrong and to be held accountable for these actions. A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong."

Its illogical(either for humans and gods) to punish non-moral agents(infants, mentally impaired people, animals) for they do not have the rational faculties to understand concepts like right, wrong, law.

Q: Surely an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-perfectly good God would not do something so illogical, no?

The problem here is the combined characteristics of omnibenevolent-morally perfect. First, I do not believe that Adonai is omnibenevolent. If you can show me where it says that in the Scriptures, I would be happy to examine that. Second, when you speak of morally perfect, I presume you mean according to either your morality, or the morality required of humans by Adonai. Well, if we are talking about your morality, I don't see why Adonai should be subject to that. If you are talking about the morality Adonai requires of men, I see that in the same way as I view what I expect of my pets. I do not live according to rules that I set for may pets and I get to decide how they are treated, because they are a dependent life form. Admittedly, I do have to answer to other humans for those actions, in a society. However, I do not have to answer to animals for my actions.

When i wrote morally perfect i meant perfectly good.

Lets look at the definitions and the bible:

omnibenevolence
NOUN
mass noun
(with reference to a deity) perfect or unlimited goodness.
they believe that God has certain attributes such as omnipotence and omnibenevolence
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... enevolence
omnibenevolent
Adjective
(not comparable)
1. All-loving, or infinitely good, usually in reference to a deity or supernatural being, for example, 'God'. Its use is often with regards to the divine triad, whereby a deity is described to be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. This triad is used especially with the Christian god, Yahweh.

Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/omnibenev ... yWh4csx.99

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless;
Deuteronomy 32:4
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

Psalm 145:9

The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.
Psalm 106
1 Praise the LORD.[a]
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

From the Bible:

1. God is benevolent towards all humans.
2. God is perfect in every way, his word is flawless.
3. All God's way are just.
4. God is all merciful.
5. God does no wrong.
6. God's loves endures forever.

C. God is omnibenevolent-perfectly good.

Punishing non-moral agents(infants, mentally impaired people) with countless suffering and death goes in contradiction with an omnibenevolent-perfectly good God.

[ttruscott]

If you are talking about the morality Adonai requires of men, I see that in the same way as I view what I expect of my pets. I do not live according to rules that I set for may pets and I get to decide how they are treated, because they are a dependent life form. Admittedly, I do have to answer to other humans for those actions, in a society. However, I do not have to answer to animals for my actions.

...you do have to answer to yourself and when Adonai does this, HE is well pleased as righteous.

Yes, but the argument is really, why doesn't Adonai do things according to the moral standards that apply to humans? Dogs probably wonder why humans don't hold themselves to their standards either. I know cats do.

HE does, but sinful humans refuse to accept HIS word on that...Suffering and death do not prove evil.

[ttruscott]

At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life).

There you go dear sir. Your done.

My done is - "Prove it! Never happened.

[alexxcJRO]

At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life).

There you go dear sir. Your done.

My done is - "Prove it! Never happened.

That's all you have to say to my :
"At least one small child or infant or mentally impaired among the 70000 chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life(one of the elect).

Therefore God killed at least one non-moral agent who is a sheep(chose to be able to become holy in YHWH's sight in his previous life). "

I guess you are done!