Who really wrote the writings of John?

[polonius]

One of the Gospels (all of which were written anonymously) and the three letters of John, and the Book of Revelation are associated with the name "John."

But how many (if any) were written by John the Apostle and hence are eyewitness accounts?

Lets start with the Gospel of John written about 95 AD.

[Goose]

In light of the above and coming full circle, if the first century Jews understood the scripture as explained above we have Jesus eating his passover meal on the night of the 14th (after the "twilight" slaughter of the animal - which was indeed the 14th according to Jewish timekeeping) and the 7-day festival of unfermented cakes starting the following night (15th). Thus John's references to Jesus' trial on being held on the "preparation of the passover" can reasonably be understood to be a reference to the festival (not the meal). This would then harmonize with the other gospel references while respecting the integrity of the source texts in Exodus and Leviticus under examination.

I think you are onto something here. I think, if I understand your argument correctly, part of the confusion, at least in regards to John, is his terminology.

When John uses phrases like "feast of the Passover" (13:1) and "day of preparation for the Passover" (19:14) it is taken at face value to refer to the Passover meal preceding the Feast of Unleavened Bread. But if we understand John to mean the Feast of Unleavened Bread when he says the Passover the apparent problems dissipate easily enough. Please correct me if I'm understanding your argument wrong.

So if this is the case then all that remains is find evidence that the Feast of Unleavened Bread could be called Passover.

And in this regard, Luke, likely writing before John and writing to a gentile audience probably unfamiliar with nuances of Jewish festivals, may provide some help here. Luke clarifies that indeed the Feast of Unleavened Bread could be called the Passover.

"Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching." - Luke 22:1

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 51 by Goose]

That is exactly the point:

- the passover meal was on the 14th
- the festival began on the 15th

(the day began in the evening at sunset)


John's style is (as you have in your own posts correctly pointed out) not always explicit, it provides details without necessarily explaining them (while Luke is unendingly thorough and Mark more often than not, kindly explains and or translates Jewish terms and traditions). The casual reader might just say "passover" and is not necessarily aware of all that the Passover season encompassed. This is not necessarily a problem unless one is going to focus on John's terminology. Then we have need of the details above.


JW

"It’s helpful to know and understand the Hebrew and to know that in ancient days there were two sacrifices i.e. two holidays that were conjoined into one in later days." - Rabbi George Schlesinger (Professor of philosophy, University of North Carolina (1967-1999)
https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pesach ... s-the-14th

[Mithrae]

My answer[...] disregards the historical continuity of the actual meal...

It scarcely matters, but you are depending entirely on the premises
- that the current Jewish tradition of a Nisan 15th Passover seder did not extend back to the 1st century CE (they somehow got their earliest and biggest festival wrong),
- that the current Jewish tradition of a day beginning in the evening did extend back up to a thousand years before the 1st century CE when Exodus originated,
- and that the day of the actual meal and whole purpose of the festival was not marked by a day of rest (but the following day was, because it was the 'first' of the festival).

Any one of these would invalidate your position: The first obviously so; the second because keeping a lamb until the 14th and killing it in the evening can very plausibly mean the evening at the end of the 14th to begin with, regardless, but especially so if the day starting at evening were a later tradition; and the third, again obviously, being a seeming absurdity in the view that the celebration of Passover seder was not actually a high holy day.

[JehovahsWitness]

My answer[...] disregards the historical continuity of the actual meal...

My answers in no way rest on the theological implication of Jesus having the authority to change tradition but on a (I hope) logical analysis of the available texts. Whereas the reading you propose not only disregards the historical continuity of the actual meal (a commemoration of the last meal in Egypt)

I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part but the quotation you present inadvertedly gives the impression that I am suggesting that *my* answer disregards the continuity of the festival, when of course that is what I was saying YOUR answer did that (no offense intended). I understand using the quotations with ellipisis can be tricky and I have sometimes made similar mistakes in transmission, so there's absolutely no problem, but it is perhaps a good idea to clarify this point by refering to the full quotation as sited.

Thanks,

[Mithrae]

I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part but the quotation you present inadvertedly gives the impression that I am suggesting that *my* answer disregards the continuity of the festival, when of course that is what I was saying YOUR answer did that (no offense intended). I understand using the quotations with ellipisis can be tricky and I have sometimes made similar mistakes in transmission, so there's absolutely no problem, but it is perhaps a good idea to clarify this point by refering to the full quotation as sited.

Oh my, how careless of me! Thankyou for being so understanding. It might be clearer (and easier) for us to both simply quote a whole paragraph going forwards without removing a line or two in the middle For example:

It scarcely matters, but you are depending entirely on the premises
- that the current Jewish tradition of a Nisan 15th Passover seder did not extend back to the 1st century CE (they somehow got their earliest and biggest festival wrong),
- that the current Jewish tradition of a day beginning in the evening did extend back up to a thousand years before the 1st century CE when Exodus originated,
- and that the day of the actual meal and whole purpose of the festival was not marked by a day of rest (but the following day was, because it was the 'first' of the festival).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by Mithrae]

Regarding your question as to what entirely depends on I would say that it doesn't entirely depend on any premise bar that truth exists and that one should use one's thinking ability to analyse available information honestly. It it presently impossible to be dogmatic about first century practices about which experts admit we have limited information. My intent therefore is to address what some may see as discrepancies in the gospel narratives by proposing feasable readings which harmonize with the written law in the Hebrew bible and what we do know about the development of the Hebrew tradition.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by Mithrae]

QUESTION: How far does the current practice of having the Passover meal (Seder) on Nisan 15 go back?

I am not, nor do I claim to be an expert on Judaism . To the best of my knowledge (and I will be more than happy for you or anyone else to draw my attention to first century and earlier source documents that shed light on the question), one cannot be dogmatic as to exactly when the date of the meal changed but it seems that the Passover meal has indeed not always been on the date it is now. We know this because, the concensus is, that there was a time when the two celebrations (the passover meal and the Festival of unleaven/unfermented bread) were seperate and that it was only over time they were eventually combined.

"It's helpful to know and understand the Hebrew and to know that in ancient days there were two sacrifices i.e. two holidays that were conjoined into one in later days." - Rabbi George Schlesinger (Professor of philosophy, University of North Carolina (1967-1999)
https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pesach ... s-the-14th

If the present celebration is a combination it cannot have had the same form PRIOR to that combination. So if the combined form is to kill on the evening of the 14th eat it on the 15, then what would the non-combined form be? Obviously the only other option that conforms to the explicit mandate that the animal be killed on the 14 (apart from the inplausable option of killing the passover lamb but not eating it at all) would be to kill it on the 14th and eat it on the 14th. Since the only other explicit mandate was that it be eaten "at night" the celebration before this change must have been to slaughter the animal at the beginning of the 14 (ie in the evening) and eat it that same night. In short all statemenets that the celebration was combined resulting in eating the meal on the 15th essentially equates to an admission that the passover meal was at one time eaten on the 14th.

This indicates a recollection that there were two separable units or feasts in the single complex of observances. But this distinction was not carefully kept....Amid all the uncertainty about the Passover and Unleavened Bread in Israel there is general agreement on two points: the feast contains two originally separate components - Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread, Vol. III, s. v.

It was in this way that Pesach [Passover] and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were joined, and the two distinct spring festivals became one historical holiday" - The Jewish Festivals ”From Their Beginnings to Our Own Day, Hayyim Schauss


The Feast of Passover consists of two parts: The Passover ceremony and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Originally both parts existed separately..." - The Encyclopedia Judaica

Comparison of the successive strata of the Pentateuchal laws bearing on the festival makes it plain that the institution, as developed, is really of composite character. Two festials originally distinct have become merged.. The Jewish Encyclopedia states, Vol. IX, Passover

There are differing opinions of when this "merge" (and the resulting change of the date of the Passover meal (Sedar)) happened ; I have yet to read any first century or earlier documents that definitvely settle the question


JW



Rabbinic literature . . . does not even claim to be telling us how the Seder [Passover meal] was performed before the destruction of the Temple (70 C.E) - Professor Jonathan Klawans, Professor of religious studies, and specialist in ancient Judaism, Boston University


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[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 55 by Mithrae]

I'm afraid I don't understand the 3rd point you make regarding a "day of rest" and a "high holy day", perhaps you could re-phrase it into a clear question (or counterpoint) so that I can try and address it.

Thanks,

JW

[Mithrae]

"It’s helpful to know and understand the Hebrew and to know that in ancient days there were two sacrifices i.e. two holidays that were conjoined into one in later days." - Rabbi George Schlesinger (Professor of philosophy, University of North Carolina (1967-1999)
https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pesach ... s-the-14th

If the present celebration is a combination it cannot have had the same form PRIOR to that combination. So if the combined form is to kill on the evening of the 14th eat it on the 15, then what would the non-combined form be? Obviously the only other option that conforms to the explicit mandate that the animal be killed on the 14 (apart from the inplausable option of killing the passover lamb but not eating it at all) would be to kill it on the 14th and eat it on the 14th. Since the only other explicit mandate was that it be eaten "at night" the celebration before this change must have been to slaughter the animal at the beginning of the 14 (ie in the evening) and eat it that same night. In short all statemenets that the celebration was combined resulting in eating the meal on the 15th essentially equates to an admission that the passover meal was at one time eaten on the 14th.

“This indicates a recollection that there were two separable units or feasts in the single complex of observances. But this distinction was not carefully kept....Amid all the uncertainty about the Passover and Unleavened Bread in Israel there is general agreement on two points: the feast contains two originally separate components� - “Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread,� Vol. III, s. v.

“It was in this way that Pesach [Passover] and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were joined, and the two distinct spring festivals became one historical holiday" - The Jewish Festivals—From Their Beginnings to Our Own Day, Hayyim Schauss

“The Feast of Passover consists of two parts: The Passover ceremony and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Originally both parts existed separately..." - The Encyclopedia Judaica

“Comparison of the successive strata of the Pentateuchal laws bearing on the festival makes it plain that the institution, as developed, is really of composite character. Two festials originally distinct have become merged...� The Jewish Encyclopedia states, Vol. IX, “Passover�

There are differing opinions of when this "merge" (and the resulting change of the date of the Passover meal (Sedar)) happened ; I have yet to read any first century or earlier documents that definitvely settle the question*.

Looks like you must be correct about that. I've also just checked Josephus' references to Passover, which seem to support the view that they were two distinct events in the 1st century:

• Josephus, Antiquities 3.10.5
  In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread...

I'm afraid I don't understand the 3rd point you make regarding a "day of rest" and a "high holy day", perhaps you could re-phrase it into a clear question (or counterpoint) so that I can try and address it.

Passover seems to have been the main point of the feast of unleavened bread, the unleavened bread obviously being a reference to the hurried exodus from Egypt. So it's very strange if the holy days, the days of rest, were on days other than that of the actual Passover meal. Strange, but still apparently true in some periods of Jewish history including the first century. If I had to guess then I suppose that those who celebrated it that way must have considered the 14th as the day of flight from Egypt and making it a day of rest must have seemed contradictory to them (...not that the Israelites stopped to relax on the second day of their flight either!).

[JehovahsWitness]

Passover seems to have been the main point of the feast of unleavened bread, the unleavened bread obviously being a reference to the hurried exodus from Egypt. So it's very strange if the holy days, the days of rest, were on days other than that of the actual Passover meal. Strange, but still apparently true in some periods of Jewish history including the first century. If I had to guess then I suppose that those who celebrated it that way must have considered the 14th as the day of flight from Egypt and making it a day of rest must have seemed contradictory to them (...not that the Israelites stopped to relax on the second day of their flight either!).

Yes, I see what you are saying. If I'm not mistaken though, the first day of any Festival was always a Sabbath, so maybe because regardless of which day of the week the Passover meal (Seder) fell on, it would always be followed by a day of rest anyway. In any case my understanding is that the Sabbaths were instituted as days to stop work in favor of spiritual reflection rather than to commemorate a day when the Israelite had rested.

Thank you for pushing me to do extra research on the subject, it was very interesting.


JW