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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:37 am
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Trump Tax Reform

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Trump tax reform has now passed. It gives a tax cut to everyone. However the richer you are the more generous the tax cuts. It also appears the tax breaks initially handed out to the poorest percentiles will be clawed back by around 2027. For good or bad I think we can agree these tax reforms are significant.

So will everyone benefit and this reform prove to be the economic fillip America needs? Will the reforms help make America great again? Or are these reforms a mixed bag destined to make little difference? Or do these reforms signal a plutocratic class grabbing the silver before the fall of the Republic. An observed characteristic of empires and civilisations in their last days.

How does religion make a difference to how you see these questions. I'm a left leaning atheist and my answers to these questions fall in the category of negative to very negative. Are there any concerned right wing Christians who feel these reforms are a huge mistake. Or does Trump's tax reforms ignite the same ol' divisions?

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:02 pm
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The bottom line claim that Trump was making is that these corporate tax cuts are going to equate to HIGHER WAGES not just more poorly paying jobs.

Let's see if that's true.

I have serious doubts.

I even predict the following: There may be some short-term superficial appearance of a shot in the arm for the economy in general (not necessarily higher wages as promised). And that will be seen as a victory. But in the long haul it's going to be a disaster, eventually petering out and creating a far greater deficit.

In fact, if the boost to the economy is measured by an increase in "profits" for the corporations then that will indeed be a farce. If they are having major tax cuts I certainly expect their "profits" to increase. So that would be a false measurement to be sure.

If we don't see significantly higher wages, then the whole thing was a big lie.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:06 pm
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By the way. I'm retired living on social security retirement.

Even if wages go up, will my social security go up too?

If not, then for me personally all this will me is that I will become even poorer yet relatively speaking.

Everyone on social security will end up being pushed down into the poverty level since their wages won't increase. Assuming wages of working people actually goes up. Something I have serious doubts about.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:57 pm
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Apparently these tax cuts are going to add $2,200 billion to the American public debt over the next 10 years*. The people who will largely benefit are the rich, and corporations largely owned by the rich. So, that's borrowing $2.2 trillion to give to the rich. I'm not sure that's sound economics, or socially just, or prudent statesmanship, or in any way a good idea, but I think I can understand why the Republican Party voted this all through.

It's called greed.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*Bloomberg.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:20 pm
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Since they are condensing the tax brackets our taxes will increase by 2% with the addition of deductions we take being removed overall we will pay significantly more. While simultaneously adding to the debt i cant say i am a super fan of it. Even though there are somethings i like i wish they were not rushing this through and tried to get something that was debt neutral.

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:29 am
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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[Replying to post 4 by 2ndRateMind]

It just occurred to me to do some arithmetic.

Let's say we agree that adding $2.2 trillion to the US budget deficit is 'a good idea'.

Let's say we have two options.

Option 1) is giving $2.2 million to each of America's million millionaires.
Option 2) is giving $6,800 to each of America's 325 million citizens.

I don't see why option 2) would provide any less of an economic boost. People would spend or save (invest) their windfall as they saw fit, and either way it would generate economic demand. And it would be a 'fair' way to distribute this money. And it might even rescue a whole load of poorer Americans from destitution.

So, what is the outweighing advantage of option 1)? Why would Trump and his Republican sycophants go for that? I wonder...

Best wishes, 2RM.

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:50 pm
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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Furrowed Brow wrote:

Trump tax reform has now passed. It gives a tax cut to everyone. However the richer you are the more generous the tax cuts. It also appears the tax breaks initially handed out to the poorest percentiles will be clawed back by around 2027. For good or bad I think we can agree these tax reforms are significant.

So will everyone benefit and this reform prove to be the economic fillip America needs? Will the reforms help make America great again? Or are these reforms a mixed bag destined to make little difference? Or do these reforms signal a plutocratic class grabbing the silver before the fall of the Republic. An observed characteristic of empires and civilisations in their last days.

How does religion make a difference to how you see these questions. I'm a left leaning atheist and my answers to these questions fall in the category of negative to very negative. Are there any concerned right wing Christians who feel these reforms are a huge mistake. Or does Trump's tax reforms ignite the same ol' divisions?

I'm a Christian and very negative regarding the new tax plan.

The other day, I heard a very interesting defense for keeping the Estate Tax as is.

The current new tax plan eliminates the estate or "death" tax.

Most South American countries do not have an estate tax.

What happened in many of these countries is that 1% or less of the population ends up after several generations with 99% of everything -- money, property, power, . . . whatever.

The estate tax allows 5.4 million dollars to be passed on to heirs tax free. The remainder is not forfeited to the Government -- but taxed.

This allows money to flow downhill somewhat, and not accumulate in a very, very, very small subset of the population.

========================================================================

If it is true that the rich get richer, and we eliminate estate tax, then ultimately, the few rich will own virtually everything.

It's just a matter of time!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 pm
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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[Replying to post 7 by myth-one.com]
Yes I think your intuition is correct. There was a spoof headline the other day that popped up on my Facebook feed that said something like all the rich agree Trump tax plan will make them even richer. It was supposed to be ironic.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:07 am
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I don't know why people think that reducing business tax rate is a bad thing. We have one of the higher rates in the world. Driving much business out of the country. This idea worked quite well for Reagan and the country in the 80s to 90s.

Looks like on the personal level, everyone below 75k pays less. I will probably save $200 a year or not. But, less is less. However , i am a consumption tax advocate. Get rid of tax code and IRS and pay a tax when you buy something.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm
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Re: Trump Tax Reform

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2ndRateMind wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Apparently these tax cuts are going to add $2,200 billion to the American public debt over the next 10 years*. The people who will largely benefit are the rich, and corporations largely owned by the rich. So, that's borrowing $2.2 trillion to give to the rich. I'm not sure that's sound economics, or socially just, or prudent statesmanship, or in any way a good idea, but I think I can understand why the Republican Party voted this all through.

It's called greed.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*Bloomberg.


That is a one sided analysis and in my opinion a mischaracterization. First, the $2.2 trillion additional debt is using static scoring, which the CBO requires. If one takes economic growth into account there could be much less of an increase in the debt, if any at all, due to the plan.

Second, what you call a claw back, is really a sunset and that was added, again to satisfy the CBO that the bill will be revenue neutral over time. As far as I know, the plan calls for the tax rates to return to current levels, not increase to a level that will "claw back" the difference that would have been paid in the low rate years. That said, nothing is permanent with regard to congressional activity. Whether the marginal rates on lower incomes will actually return to current rates is an open question.

Third, money is not being given to the rich. Money is continuing to be spent or given to current government programs and individual under those current programs. Taxpayers are permitted to keep more of what they have earned. Since those who earn more, pay more taxes, they will be permitted to keep more of what they earned.

Fourth, if one does not like the government giving things to some citizens and not to others, one should be looking at cutting government programs and transfer payments, not the amounts the government takes. Quite frankly, the income tax code has never been equitable and will continue to be inequitable, because high income earners will still be paying at a higher rate than low income earners.

In short, the most important thing that the tax reform bill does is to get rid of some tax deductions so that the principle I referred to are easier to identify. For me personally, the removal of the individual mandate is the most important thing, because I think most people are not going to think through the issues I have raised above, but will continue to hold the class warfare viewpoints that have been expressed in other posts on this thread. The removal of the individual mandate returns to the people the civil right to not be forced to buy a commodity.

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