Even after sufficient proof, would you change that much?

[jgh7]

People debate back and forth about whether Christianity can be believed or not. But let's hypothetically say that whatever your requirements for belief were were satisfied. Perhaps the Christian God came directly to you and proved beyond doubt that the one true religion is Christianity (yes you're that special that he came personally to you).

So now what? You have belief, but are you really any different? Perhaps you will go to church, read the bible, say you're sorry for your bad deeds, and try to do more good deeds.

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief? Do things suddenly become more beautiful, does your personality change, do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

[Divine Insight]

People debate back and forth about whether Christianity can be believed or not. But let's hypothetically say that whatever your requirements for belief were were satisfied. Perhaps the Christian God came directly to you and proved beyond doubt that the one true religion is Christianity (yes you're that special that he came personally to you).

It would require quite a bit for God to convince me that he actually is God. Especially with our knowledge of technology today. I feel confident that a billionaire could, if he truly wanted to, create illusions using technologies that would convince a lot of people that they have encountered a God. Thus for me, much of being convinced would have to do with what this God actually says to me.

If he acts like I jerk I would definitely suspect fraud. In fact, didn't Jesus even preach that we would be able to tell entities that come from God by the fruits of their behavior? Surely the same principle should apply to being approached by God himself.

One of my first questions to this God would be "Why now?" From my perspective at 68 years old this would basically be too little too late. Why didn't God reveal himself to me when I was 20 years old asking him to do just that?

Today it could be a mere human who has more money than he knows what to do with and enjoys playing tricks on people using technological gadgets.

It could be aliens who are trying to convince me that they are God for some reason.

According to Jesus himself, it could be Satan trying to fool me. So why should I do what Satan says? Satan is the father of lies right? So Satan wouldn't have any problem claiming to be God.

So this God would need to convince me that he's intelligent, and benevolent at the very least. Anything short of that and by Jesus' own decree the entity should not be trusted.

But for the sake of continuing suppose God appeared to me and displayed intelligence and benevolence.

So now what? You have belief, but are you really any different? Perhaps you will go to church, read the bible, say you're sorry for your bad deeds, and try to do more good deeds.

No I wouldn't be any different, nor would I have a reason to suddenly try to change who I am. I'm already sorry for many things I've done in the past, and I'm more than willing to repent for having done them. In fact, as far as I'm concerned I already have repented precisely because I'm already sorry that I had done them.

So I would have nothing to repent. That's already water over the dam. And God would know it.

Why would I go to church or read the Bible? If God came to me in person the first thing I would want to make clear is that the Bible is filled with self-contradictions and inconsistencies and I can't even figure out what it's trying to say anyway. In fact, I shouldn't need to tell this to God because God would surely already know this. God would need to explain to me why the Bible is so screwed up and undependable.

Also, if God wanted me to go to church he would need to tell me which church to go to because I certainly wouldn't know which church has a clue what they are talking about.

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief?

I wouldn't need to change. In fact, my position with God would be that if he doesn't like who I am then so be it. Let's just go with that. I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not even for a God.

If this God doesn't like me then he must not care for honest decent people. So whoever he does want I couldn't care less. Why should I suck up to a God that doesn't hold my values? How would that be any different from sucking up to a demon who doesn't hold my values?

Do things suddenly become more beautiful, does your personality change, do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

The only difference I can see is that if this truly is God then the fact that there can be life after death must be true. However, for me that alone is not sufficient. For me personally the real question is whether or not I would want to live forever under the demanding authority of this God? If I don't think I would enjoy that, then death would be far more inviting.

Living forever is not cool if it's not going to be an enjoyable experience.

This is why I say that if this God doesn't like me just as I am, then by all means kill me. Let's not pretend that we could get along if that's not going to be the case.

Just because a God can offer eternal life doens't automatically make him a desirable dictator.

So this God would need to convince me that life eternal under his rule is worth living.

If he is already demanding that I go to church, etc. Then I'm probably not going to be happy living in his fascist regime.

And let's face it, according to Christianity the Kingdom of God is extreme fascism where only God's will is done, thus leaving the possibility of anyone else living in this kingdom of having any free will of their own.

I don't see how free will is even compatible with the Christian God's Kingdom of Heaven. So perhaps I'm not cut out to become one of this God's robots?

I'm a "flawed" human because I actually value free will and I take Patrick Henry's position on this:

"Give me liberty or give me death"

That's what I'd say to the Christian God.

I have no interest in life eternal if it is going to cost me my liberty.

[ttruscott]

Perhaps the Christian God came directly to you and proved beyond doubt that the one true religion is Christianity (yes you're that special that he came personally to you). ?

Yes, GOD comes directly to some people but that does not make them special...it makes them ordinary as they are the elect, the biggest group of people in all creation. But it also makes them jerks as they chose to be sinful after getting HIS promise to save them from their sins...a pretty blockhead thing to do.

Christians are special? Sure they are because without them rebelling against the judgement of Satan and his angels, the judgement would have taken place and the heavenly state started at that moment. Too bad but their rebellion forced the postponement of the judgement until these sinful elect could brought back to HIM, redeemed and sanctified, made heaven ready and then the harvest could begin. So all worldly suffering is attributable to their rebellion against YHWH...

[Kenisaw]

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief? Do things suddenly become more beautiful, does your personality change, do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

I would definitely change fundamentally. I would KNOW that a god exists, and that this god created a universe full of facts and data that refute all of the things this same god claimed in it's ancient texts. I would know that the god that killed infants in a world flood and hardened the heart of a pharaoh so it could inflict plagues on the common people and kill their firstborn males is real. I would know that this same god suddenly decides to be nice to everyone around 1 AD. Which means that I would now be a subject of an entity that is a liar and a murderer, that might also have some kind of personality disorder.


So yeah I would change. I would be as depressed as all hell...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by Kenisaw]

Would you worship Satan if you were convinced he existed and was actually the God of this world? Would you really compromise all of your principles to save your skin?

JOB 2:4

But Satan answered the LORD, "Skin for skin! Indeed, a man will give up all that he has to save his life!

Wouldn't you rather die than worship the God of the bible (if that choice were offered to you)?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

People debate back and forth about whether Christianity can be believed or not. But let's hypothetically say that whatever your requirements for belief were were satisfied. Perhaps the Christian God came directly to you and proved beyond doubt that the one true religion is Christianity (yes you're that special that he came personally to you).

So now what? You have belief, but are you really any different? Perhaps you will go to church, read the bible, say you're sorry for your bad deeds, and try to do more good deeds.

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief? Do things suddenly become more beautiful, does your personality change, do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

If God came to me and convinced me that He not only existed but that Christianity was the one true religion, that would change my entire outlook on reality.

This is in fact pretty much what happened to Paul. While traveling to Damascus Paul collapsed and had to be taken into the city, where his traveling companions left him at the home of a Christian man. Acts indicates that Paul was unable to drink for three days. Three days without water is a critical condition. Vision problems and hallucinations are to be expected from anyone suffering such a desperate dehydration. While in this condition, and while being prayed over by a Christian man, Paul believed that he had a vision of the years dead Jesus. This belief changed his entire life.

Whether or not Paul ACTUALLY had contact with a man who had been dead several years is immaterial to Paul's firm BELIEF that he spoke to Jesus while sick and delirious.

[Divine Insight]

Wouldn't you rather die than worship the God of the bible (if that choice were offered to you)?

If the Bible is a correct description of God then yes, I would absolutely rather die.

I would have absolutely no desire to spend eternity living under the dictatorship of the God described in the Bible. I totally disagree with his barbaric character.

1. He not only supports male-chauvinism, but he actually demands it.
2. He supports the buying, selling, keeping, and beating of slaves.
3. If you do something he doesn't approve of he may curse you to crawl on your belly and eat dirt for the rest of your days.
4. If you do something he doesn't approve of he may greatly multiply your pain and sorrow in childbirth.
5. If you look in the wrong directly he may turn you into a pillar of salt.
6. If he was willing to have his very own corrupt priests call for the brutal crucifixion of his only begotten Son just imagine what he might have done to you!
7. If he casts people into eternal damnation of everlasting punishment for merely not believing that he exists, that can only show what he'll always be like.

After all, keep in mind that this God supposedly never changes or grows up. Apparently he'll be a nasty self-centered spoiled brat forever.

So yep, if the Bible is a true and correct description of this God's personality I would much rather die.

Definitely.

In fact, I've said it many times. Between pure secular materialism and the Biblical God, secular materialism wins hands-down as the more inviting reality.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 4 by Kenisaw]

Would you worship Satan if you were convinced he existed and was actually the God of this world? Would you really compromise all of your principles to save your skin?

JOB 2:4

But Satan answered the LORD, "Skin for skin! Indeed, a man will give up all that he has to save his life!

Wouldn't you rather die than worship the God of the bible (if that choice were offered to you)?

It actually makes sense to me that an evil force (satan if you want to call it that) is more likely to be in charge than a supposed benevolent being, if a creator being actually exists. Given what I outlined in my previous post, I think we almost have to conclude that as a matter of fact. Lying, murdering, schizophrenia. Sounds like the traditional satan to me.

Would I worship such a being? No. I don't now, and I don't see the difference between the Abrahamic god and a satan-like figure being in charge. They seem one in the same to me.

So dying seems perfectly fine to me. I've already accepted that as my end state anyway, so it doesn't bother me for the purposes of this scenario to make that statement. I'd rather be dead than worship a creature that made all this, then lied about it, killed millions, punished me for the failings of two people back in some garden, and killed his kid. You can have that rubbish if you want, I'm not interested.

[OnceConvinced]

So now what? You have belief, but are you really any different?

I would be rejoicing in the fact that I would be finding out that the first 30-40 years of my life as a Christian was not based on a fantasy after all. I would be so glad that it was real and that my lack of belief was unfounded.

As for me as a person, I would be much the same person as I am much the same person now as I was as a believer. I am still just as compassionate and caring. I still try to be the best person I can be. I do not want to harm anyone. I do not want to sin.

So the only thing that will have changed is that I will once again believe in God and I can once again have a relationship with him.

Perhaps you will go to church,

Well yes, I will gladly return to church as I loved church and the people in it.

read the bible,

If God can assure me it really is his word, then yes, although I would have a lot of questions I hope he would be able to answer. I'm guessing that he will tell me it's not his word though and just written by men who were trying to speak on his behalf. I think I would find he would be insulted by the claims that it was his word.

say you're sorry for your bad deeds,

Like Divine Insight, I am already sorry for the bad things I've done in the past. Likewise when I occasionally do bad things, I feel sorry afterwards. If God wants to list things I've done that require repentance that I wasn't aware of, then I'll do what needs to be done.

and try to do more good deeds.

I already attempt to do good deeds. If God demands more, well I'll do my best.

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief?

Well considering that I haven't change fundamentally when I went from Christian to Atheist I'm probably not going to change much going back to Christian. It's just my belief system that will have changed.

Do things suddenly become more beautiful,

I already see much beauty in this world. I'm not sure if it will change going back to being a Christian. In fact I'm figuring the opposite will be true. I will go back to believing that everyone's being manipulated by Satan and that there are demons running around trying to mess everything up. I'll believe that everyone is basically evil and deserving of death. I'll probably go back to believing that gays, people of other religions and atheists are evil sinful people. So it's more likely I will see things as less beautiful based on that.

does your personality change,

It never changed when I went from Christian to ex-Christian except that perhaps now I am more comfortable about being myself. Going back to being a Christian again may actually result in me inhibiting myself a bit and not allowing my true personality to come out.

do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

I have become happier and more enriched every day since I lost my belief in God and got over my loss of faith. It would be interesting to see whether that trend would continue with a belief in god again.

[1213]

But do you really change fundamentally as a person from simply having belief compared to not having belief? Do things suddenly become more beautiful, does your personality change, do you become more happier and enriched each day as you live with your newly found belief?

I think God and His words makes me better. If I wouldn’t know what the Bible teaches, and without God, I probably wouldn’t love as I now do. In my opinion He has shown perfect example of how to live well.