Why is god in hiding?

JJ50 · Post by **JJ50** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:49 am

If the Biblical god exists why does it hide away, making its existence a matter of faith not reality?

Those who claim there is evidence that god exists, can never provide that evidence.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:41 am

marco wrote:
As for using advanced technology - no matter how advanced technology is, it still needs to abide by the laws of nature. Therefore, any lifeform, regardless of how advanced they are, should not be able to do the impossible. God, however, could do the impossible.
Yes, it seems you want a pre-packaged God made to your specifications.

An omnipotent God is hardly my specification.

marco wrote:Mythologies have gods appearing as old women.

Given that this is Christianity and Apologetics and since the OP didn't specify non-Christian gods of other mythologies, my assumption is that the OP is dealing with the God of Christianity. And the God of Christianity is an omnipotent being.

marco wrote: And I don't know if gods dance to order.

It's not so much an order as it is an if you want me to believe clause. If God truly wanted me to believe in him and he wasn't hindered by his pride by refusing to do what I ask because "who are you to order God?", then God would have no problem proving himself to me in these ways. It's not so much a "do what I say, God!". Rather a "please, if you truly want me to believe in you, I would like you to do the following". It's not an order, it's a request.

marco wrote:If a very powerful being comes to my door illustrating very mysterious things I will be happy to call him God, if that's what he wants.

Even if you don't really think he's God?

marco wrote:
While I can fathom an alien race with things like teleportation, limb regeneration, a cure for all disease, etc., to expect an alien race to be literally omnipotent thanks to their technology is a bit of a stretch.
And which text requires God to be omnipotent? He may have died after the toil of creation.

I'd rather stick to the assumption that the OP is dealing with a Christian God (who is both omnipotent and immortal, according to the vast majority of denominations). I'd rather not prolong this with unending what-if's about various versions of possible gods.

marco wrote:It's probably best to keep an open mind and prepare to be pleasantly surprised. There is a lovely story of a small girl drawing for her teacher. The teacher asks: "Mary, what are you drawing?" And she says: "I am drawing God." Teacher says: "But nobody knows what God looks like." And the wise little girl replies: "Well they will soon."

As sweet as this story sounds, I don't see what it actually adds to the debate?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:48 am

GOD hides HIMself because proof destroys faith by turning it into, well...proof.

Faith, an unproven hope, is the basis of everything we hold as reality because we have no proof that any definition is so. Therefore it is the perfect method by which we self define our deepest desire for reality. Hate the idea of bowing to a superior GOD? Then put your faith in the idea that there is no god and that science can and will explain everything.

Love the idea that there must be a God behind it all but feel left out? Then believe in Hinduism etc that ways all the physical is merely a manifestation of the godly and therefore you are indeed god yourself...or even become a Mormon for the more direct expression of you as god.

All these beliefs are in fact hopes (at the deepest strongest level) about which kind of reality we are in, the kind of reality we would make for ourselves if we had the power.

GOD proving HIMself to us all destroys this unique nature of faith as self defining who we are in what kind of universe. If the time ever comes for HIM to separate creation into camps, the job is already done by ourselves by our own choice based on our own hopes and desires.

That is why GOD hides HIMself...it is all speculation until the Great White Throne.

JJ50 · Post by **JJ50** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:03 am

[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

That doesn't show god up in a very good light if any of that were true!

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:08 am

[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

If proof destroys faith, then why are religionists always demonstrating proof?:
Either by personal experience, by demonstration of 'miracles', by apologist arguments (Cosmological etc.). and so on?

Why don't you realize that your "personal experiences" if they were true, would constitute proof.

Faith is NOT destroyed by proof, it is cemented by it.
Your "proof destroys faith" is a false assertion.

Look at science, we have to see phenomenon many many many times before it is considered proved.

One can not have faith without substance.
That substance is proof, and your assertion collapses, like the silly house of cards it has always been.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:16 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

If proof destroys faith, then why are religionists always demonstrating proof?:
Either by personal experience, by demonstration of 'miracles', by apologist arguments (Cosmological etc.). and so on?

Why don't you realize that your "personal experiences" if they were true, would constitute proof.

Faith is NOT destroyed by proof, it is cemented by it.

What is proven is not longer hoped for and faith is hope: Rom 8: 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:21 pm

ttruscott wrote:Therefore it is the perfect method by which we self define our deepest desire for reality.

What I believe in no way reflects what I desire. This may describe your mentality, but you can't just project your emotionally driven mind on to all of humanity. We don't all choose what we believe based on what sounds nicest to us.

ttruscott wrote: Hate the idea of bowing to a superior GOD? Then put your faith in the idea that there is no god and that science can and will explain everything...

All these beliefs are in fact hopes (at the deepest strongest level) about which kind of reality we are in, the kind of reality we would make for ourselves if we had the power.

Personally, I would love for there to be a God. I would love for there to be an omnipotent being of perfect justice that promises eternal life for the righteous. But, again, unlike you, I don't base my belief on what sounds nicest. I am a prime example of your theology just being outright wrong. If my desire drove my belief, I would have chosen YHWH pre-Earth.

ttruscott wrote:GOD proving HIMself to us all destroys this unique nature of faith as self defining who we are in what kind of universe. If the time ever comes for HIM to separate creation into camps, the job is already done by ourselves by our own choice based on our own hopes and desires.

Or... you know... God can just read our minds to see what we truly desire rather than set up this potentially flawed test that allows gullible cowards into heaven while damning righteous-yet-skeptic individuals to hell.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Willum wrote: That substance is proof, and your assertion collapses, like the silly house of cards it has always been.

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marco · Post by **marco** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:07 pm

Justin108 wrote:
An omnipotent God is hardly my specification.

It is one you are adopting.

Given that this is Christianity and Apologetics and since the OP didn't specify non-Christian gods of other mythologies, my assumption is that the OP is dealing with the God of Christianity. And the God of Christianity is an omnipotent being. [/quote]

I see. But of course the Bible is not authoritative here.

Justin108 wrote:
It's not so much a "do what I say, God!". Rather a "please, if you truly want me to believe in you, I would like you to do the following". It's not an order, it's a request.

Of course we are paddling in hypothetical silliness but let's play. The God you address would be capable of making you believe he had complied with your request. A very intelligent being might have that capability too, since hypnotists have it.

Justin108 wrote:
I don't see what it actually adds to the debate?

I was unsuccessfully illustrating that we have our own built-in image of God and it is that image we are addressing hypothetically. We would probably be stunned into silence were a god or god-like being to appear before us. Were it Yahweh, we might taste of salt.

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:56 pm

ttruscott wrote: GOD hides HIMself because proof destroys faith by turning it into, well...proof.

Not at all. You still need to be able to trust God, even once you believe in him. Faith is still required.

If I have proof that God exists, then I have something solid to build my faith on. I still need to employ faith when it comes to his promises and assurances. I still need to employ faith that he is not going to let me down. I still have to have faith that he is the one true God and that all others are beneath him. That is where faith becomes important.

Just take the disciples for example. They had absolute proof of God right before their noses, didn't they, but what did Jesus continually judge them for? Their lack of faith. What we see in the gospels is that the disciples faith strengthened, the more proof they were given.

The bible teaches that miracles are done especially to create proof of God and that Jesus was from god. If that was the case then even Jesus himself was trying to provide proof, yet he still considered faith crucial. Just look at the story of Doubting Thomas. Thomas wanted proof so Jesus gave it to him. Did that destroy his faith? No, it strengthened his faith and Thomas went on and did great things

Ted, have you ever come across a Christian who repented and accepted Christ without first believing in God? As far as I can see in the many years I've been a Christian, no one has ever become a Christian unless they first believed in God and that it was necessary to go through Jesus for forgiveness. I am yet to come across anyone who repents who doesn't already feel like they don't have proof that God is real.

William · Post by **William** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:50 pm

[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

GOD hides HIMself because proof destroys faith by turning it into, well...proof.

This contradicts ttruscotts own theology. He claims here;
[In the thread "Problem of Evil and a Good God"]
Post 23:

It was rejected by those who thought it was a self aggrandizing lie to trick them into accepting HIS superiority.

which, I pointed out was faulty and he - as he often does with the hard questions and logical observations pointing out contradictions in his theology -ignored that;

Post 24:

In order for this to have occurred, there had to be an actual being in some kind of form which claimed to be their GOD.

Debating Christianity and Religion

Why is god in hiding?

Why is god in hiding?

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Re: Why is god in hiding?