Catholicism and original sin

[Justin108]

Can a Catholic please explain to me the concept of original sin? Do all people deserve to go to hell the moment they are born?

[myth-one.com]

Resurrect now , don't wait for his second coming.

To "resurrect now" you would need to be dead.

It is unwise to think there is only ONE interpretation. What about this in Luke 15: 24?



"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. "

That verse really needs no interpretation.

His son left home and spent his inheritance on riotous living.

His son was never really dead.

Read the complete parable & tell me whether or not the kid was resurrected:

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

[myth-one.com]

God is perfect justice, so if we deserve hell we would get hell, but God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but might have eternal life.

Jesus died to repair the damage incurred on us by our forefather Adam.

Why did Jesus need to die in order to achieve that? Surely an omnipotent God can repair this damage without the need to sacrifice anything. Either that, or God is not omnipotent.

Omnipotent: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

Under that definition, God is not omnipotent, as there are things He cannot do.

For example, God cannot lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God made an everlasting covenant with the children of God.

Under that covenant, the wages of sin is death, where sin is breaking any command of God.

But no human ever gained everlasting life under that testament -- as all sinned.

God then sent the Word to earth as the human Jesus Christ.

Jesus lived a sinless life, then died on the cross.

All humans die their first death -- as it is appointed to all mankind:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Since the first death is appointed to all mankind, Jesus' death on the cross is not what saves Christians. That was his first and appointed death. This is the answer to one of your questions -- Jesus did have to die as a consequence of being a physical bodied man.

However, the man Jesus is due an everlasting spiritual life as His reward for living a sinless human life under the Old Testament!

However, He will refuse His inheritance, and offer it freely to all who accept Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins under the guidelines of the New Testament Covenant:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The rationalization is that by the sin of one man, all mankind inherited sin. Therefore, through one man salvation can also be offered to many:

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

GOD can change none of this -- as all of it is accomplished under the laws and everlasting covenants which He created!

If He changed any part of His everlasting covenants, then He lied about them being everlasting.

But He cannot lie.

Thus "whosoever believeth" may gain everlasting life!

[dio9]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

This is precisely what resurrection means, its spiritual resurrection. Adam died spiritually and what Jesus brought was spiritual rebirth, Jesus brought spiritual resurrection back to the sons of Adam. in fact the prodigal did die spiritually when he left his true home and fell into dissipation. The message of the parable is come home, be your father's son again.
Not just to revel in his salvation but to continue to grow his spiritual life in relation with his father.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

This is precisely what resurrection means, its spiritual resurrection. Adam died spiritually and what Jesus brought was spiritual rebirth, Jesus brought spiritual resurrection back to the sons of Adam. in fact the prodigal did die spiritually when he left his true home and fell into dissipation. The message of the parable is come home, be your father's son again.
Not just to revel in his salvation but to continue to grow his spiritual life in relation with his father.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Spiritual bodies cannot die.

Since they cannot die, they will never need to be resurrected.

Being a man, Adam was a natural, physical being, living in the physical world.

He died a physical death -- like all humans.

The human prodigal ran away from home.

He did not die "spiritually" or physically.

Therefore, he was not resurrected -- he simply returned.

The mood of those accustomed to his daily presence changed accordingly upon his departure and return.

The behaviour of the prodical and lack of any information made it seem as if he had been dead to the father.

[dio9]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

This is precisely what resurrection means, its spiritual resurrection. Adam died spiritually and what Jesus brought was spiritual rebirth, Jesus brought spiritual resurrection back to the sons of Adam. in fact the prodigal did die spiritually when he left his true home and fell into dissipation. The message of the parable is come home, be your father's son again.
Not just to revel in his salvation but to continue to grow his spiritual life in relation with his father.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Spiritual bodies cannot die.

Since they cannot die, they will never need to be resurrected.

Being a man, Adam was a natural, physical being, living in the physical world.

He died a physical death -- like all humans.

The human prodigal ran away from home.

He did not die "spiritually" or physically.

Therefore, he was not resurrected -- he simply returned.

The mood of those accustomed to his daily presence changed accordingly upon his departure and return.

The behaviour of the prodical and lack of any information made it seem as if he had been dead to the father.

"Spiritual bodies cannot die. "

I beg to differ. It was the spiritual self that died when Adam fell , not the physical self. As you must know the physical children of Adam were born and multiplied after the parents left the garden. Resulting in a world off center , out of focus suffering under guilt ignorance of their origins, delusion and wrong thinking which have resulted in what we call civilization. Jesus initiated the Messianic age for us to follow and fulfill or not. Obviously our ancestors did the best they could but the kingdom of Jesus has not nearly been realized. And what is that kingdom's promise ? Peace on earth for starters.

[myth-one.com]

Spiritual bodies cannot die.

I beg to differ.

Stop begging, and present some Biblical evidence that Adam was a spiritual being like God and the angels.

Thanks

[polonius]

[Replying to post 18 by ttruscott]

The story of the rebellion of Satan is not biblical. I believe it can be found in the book of Enoch , its more a part of ancient Jewish literature and poetry . In Genesis Satan, (the serpent ) tempts Eve away and them She and Adam commit the sin under the influence of Satan.

RESPONSE: Isn't the story recognized as fictional and therefore not included in the Bible?

[polonius]

Can a Catholic please explain to me the concept of original sin? Do all people deserve to go to hell the moment they are born?

RESPONSE: What people deserve isn't the issue. It's punishing children for the sin of their forefather. (This assumes that you believe the Genesis story).

From the sixth session of the Council of Florence, (July 6, 1439): “The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denz., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693): “the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments� (poenis disparibus).�

QUESTION: Is God just? Or is there a chance that the Church is in error here?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 18 by ttruscott]

The story of the rebellion of Satan is not biblical. I believe it can be found in the book of Enoch , its more a part of ancient Jewish literature and poetry . In Genesis Satan, (the serpent ) tempts Eve away and them She and Adam commit the sin under the influence of Satan.

RESPONSE: Isn't the story recognized as fictional and therefore not included in the Bible?

recognize the story as metaphoric. Adam and Eve represent humanity. They are the humans God created. WHAT CAUSED THEIR ALIENATION IS TOTALLY OPEN FOR DISCUSSION . The garden story gives us something to think about.
Somehow Adam and Eve left the normal order of the creation. All it takes though for each of our salvation is to return to the normal order. How to do this is the challenge. Its what religions are about. Its all about reconnecting.

[polonius]

Dio 9 posted:

Recognize the story as metaphoric. Adam and Eve represent humanity. They are the humans God created. WHAT CAUSED THEIR ALIENATION IS TOTALLY OPEN FOR DISCUSSION . The garden story gives us something to think about.

Somehow Adam and Eve left the normal order of the creation. All it takes though for each of our salvation is to return to the normal order. How to do this is the challenge. Its what religions are about. Its all about reconnecting.

RESPONSE: Is the Virgin Birth metaphoric too?