According to Catholicism, unbaptized infants go to hell.

[polonius]

The Council of Florence infallibly taught:

“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.� (Florence, Sixth Session, 6 July 1439.)�

This is an "infallible" and hence unchangeable teaching which everyone has to believe.

So infants who died without being baptized went to hell. This was originally a teaching of St. Augustine.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 7 by OnceConvinced]

What about adding 4 also: It's simply just a silly religious ritual; a symbolic act and how can a symbolic act have any power on its own?

The Church does not teach that Baptism is simply a symbolic act.

Whether it's taught or not is beside the point. All you are doing is dunking someone under water (or sprinkling water on). There is nothing miraculous about the water. If there is any new birth or cleansing going on it's God doing it, not the water. God could do it without the need for actual water.

Do you not believe that God could cleanse a person without the need for using water? Or does he not have that ability? Is he rendered impotent if no water is involved?

If he doesn't need the water, then that water part is completely redundant and all you have is a religious ritual. A symbolic act that would be pointless otherwise.

[marco]

Whether it's taught or not is beside the point. All you are doing is dunking someone under water (or sprinkling water on). There is nothing miraculous about the water

This is completely logical but you are fighting against the hurricane of Christ's words, reported by John: "“Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

God knows why we needed the double affirmation at the start- possibly to lend authenticity. But there you have it: "No water - no admittance."

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 11 by OnceConvinced]

Whether it's taught or not is beside the point. All you are doing is dunking someone under water (or sprinkling water on). There is nothing miraculous about the water. If there is any new birth or cleansing going on it's God doing it, not the water. God could do it without the need for actual water.

This is like saying God could have put us all on Mars if He wanted and we would be little green men with 4 eyes instead. Of course God could do anything He wants – He’s God. That doesn’t mean He didn’t choose to do something a certain way. In this case, He chose Baptism as our means of salvation.

If he doesn't need the water . . .

God doesn’t need anything. He doesn’t even need us. But we’re here.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.� [1257]

“The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.� [CCC 1257]

So, yeah . . . Baptism and the water are pretty important . . .

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 12 by marco]

OnceConvinced wrote:



Whether it's taught or not is beside the point. All you are doing is dunking someone under water (or sprinkling water on). There is nothing miraculous about the water


This is completely logical . . .

It is completely logical only if it is logical to say human beings could have been designed with lungs that require helium to live rather than oxygen. Uummm . . . sure, they could have been designed that way, but we aren’t.

[Jack]

It seems that we're getting off subject. The Catechism of the Catholic church states. As regards children who have died without baptism, the Catholic church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men be saved,and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

[Jack]

Actually breathing pure oxygen would kill you.

[myth-one.com]

It seems that we're getting off subject. The Catechism of the Catholic church states. As regards children who have died without baptism, the Catholic church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men be saved,and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

First of all, sin cannot be imputed or charged against young children who do not understand the laws of God.

Sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments:

For sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

However, to commit a sin, one must first recognize that the act is a sin:

To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Children who are not sufficiently old or educated to recognize sinful actions -- have no law.

Therefore, they have no law to transgress. Thus they cannot sin.
=======================================================================

Secondly, the sacrament of water baptism saves no one:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

========================================================================

And there is a way of salvation for children who have died.

It is no different than that for every other human.

They must believe in Jesus as their Savior:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 11 by OnceConvinced]

Whether it's taught or not is beside the point. All you are doing is dunking someone under water (or sprinkling water on). There is nothing miraculous about the water. If there is any new birth or cleansing going on it's God doing it, not the water. God could do it without the need for actual water.

This is like saying God could have put us all on Mars if He wanted and we would be little green men with 4 eyes instead. Of course God could do anything He wants – He’s God. That doesn’t mean He didn’t choose to do something a certain way. In this case, He chose Baptism as our means of salvation.

If he doesn't need the water . . .

God doesn’t need anything. He doesn’t even need us. But we’re here.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.� [1257]

“The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.� [CCC 1257]

So, yeah . . . Baptism and the water are pretty important . . .

It should be obvious that if God doesn't need it then all it is, is a silly religious ritual most likely ordained by men, not any god.

[Jack]

[Replying to post 18 by OnceConvinced]

Yes Believe the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, an listen to him and obey him when he also said. Go into all the world preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but who ever does not believes is condemned.

[myth-one.com]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but who ever does not believes is condemned.

Whosoever believes and is not baptized will also be saved:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)