Does God want everyone to believe in him?

[Justin108]

Does God want everyone to believe in him?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 70 by rikuoamero]

But he never actually 'asks' the 'devil', does he? If he's supposed to be studying the case for Christ or case for a creator, why not ask those who don't believe Christ/creator, and get their views in the book?

Just to drive home my point here, which I didn't get into earlier, here is an example.
A handful of years ago, a journalist at Rolling Stone magazine interviewed a woman named Jackie who claimed to have been violently gang-raped at a frat party. It became known as the 'A Rape on Campus' story.
Among the many problems with the article (which I won't get into here), the journalist did not attempt to interview the members of the fraternity being accused to get their side of the story. Indeed, from what I remember after hearing about this article, was the journalist went to the campus looking for a rape case to write about, and here she writes one that is so incredibly biased as to not even be funny.

Surely FtK you can see the problem with someone who is an investigate journalist not attempting in their book where they claim to be using journalistic investigative methods to interview non-believers.
It's a question of ethics, if nothing else at all.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 64 by For_The_Kingdom]

Thanks for the info. It will take me a while to find time to digest some of this. I'll get back to you at some point though.

[Kenisaw]

Hence the coercion

Riiiight - GOD coerces everyone yet billions are not cerced. Is your foot hurting?

Actually my back is, from trying to hold up logic and reason around here.

Gods obviously coerce humans to believe in them. Didn't you and I just go through this in another thread?

Billions go to church/service/meditate, right? They go because their god being said they are supposed to, right? If they don't, they will go to the bad place, right?

Coercion.

ttruscott, I'm just being honest with you here. Most of the time when believers I talk to find out I'm atheist, they don't ask me why I don't want to spend eternity basking in the glory of their god...

They ask me why I want to go to hell.

The reality is, the bad place threat is a motivating factor or a lot of people. And that is coercion, plain and simple.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I get that, but why does it deserve eternal punishment?

Sinning against an eternal God deserves eternal punishment.

Again, this is like setting your child on fire for disobeying you.

If my child is an adult, I can think of reasons why setting him on fire would be appropriate.

Except, unlike burning to death, hell is an endless suffering.

Well, don't commit crimes that would lead to endless suffering.

Would you think a parent who sets his children on fire is evil? Or would you just assume the children deserve it?

It depends. I can think of reasons.

That still doesn't justify torture. If my kids ran away from home (i.e separated themselves from me), I wouldn't set them on fire the moment I catch up with them.

Then you apparently ain't God.

I get that. But why am I eternally punished?

The bigger question is, why would you reject God's love and subject yourself to God's judgement?

I mean the average person's biggest sins are usually things like lying, watching porn and maybe stealing ice cream from the freezer while mom isn't looking. But does that really deserve eternal punishment?

That is just a testament as to how much God hates sin. The key is; don't be subjected to God's wrath, and he created a pathway for you to NOT to be...Jesus.

Would you be perfectly fine with it if you heard that North Korea was imprisoning and torturing people and then sentencing them to death for watching porn?

No, because North Koreans are contingent beings whose laws/standards are subjective.

Oh is that so? So if someone were to be sentenced to death for stealing a chocolate bar from the candy shop, you would be ok with that? I mean death is the accepted punishment for sin after all, and theft is a sin.

You are talking about man-made laws, and comparing it to God's laws. Apples/Oranges.

If God was merciful, he wouldn't have made the wage for sin death to begin with.

I guess we all have our opinions.

Basically, God made a law that sentences people to death for sinning, and then he invented a loophole for his own law to have us wiggle out of that sentence.

Problem?

Why would he do that?

Why would God give us a way out? Hmm.

If he wasn't happy with the wages for sin being death, then why did he instate that to begin with?

If God doesn't exist, then why worry yourself about such things?

Wait I thought we are being eternally punished, not just dying a physical death. Why then give the animal a physical death?

Most people would rather live than die, so the physical death is a big deal to them. Since they would rather live, they are in the position where their life can be taken away from them, which they would prefer it not be.

Does the animal suffer eternally as well?

No.

We already get a physical death regardless, so what's the point of the animal?

There is a different in dying eventually...and dying right now.

Wait... so God is torturing innocent animals as a threat to us? How sociopathic is he? If a mother tortured the family pet and said "this will be you if you don't clean your room right now!", you wouldn't find anything wrong with that? You don't think this woman should be locked up in an insane asylum and have her kids taken away from her?

My mother aint God. I am sure if you were God, your perspective would be completely different.

Why was there a need for a new covenant? What's wrong with the old one?

Maybe he wanted to exhibit his love for us...literally once and for all.

So God had his own son tortured

Jesus is God, so in essence, Jesus volunteered himself.

... as a warning for us? Wow. It just gets worse and worse. But God is love you guys, am I right?

Again, 1 Corinthians 1:18 "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Not everyone will understand and/or accept the message for the very reason that you don't.

Who's fault is that? No one on earth is good enough. Who then can be to blame if not our creator? If literally every iPhone was faulty and defective, wouldn't you be blaming Apple for it?

No one is blaming anyone for not being good enough...the point is for us to acknowledge that we aren't good enough, and also acknowledge that we need a redeemer.

Why is that necessary?

Because God said it is necessary.

Hell is a bit more than a "spanking" wouldn't you say?

Well, since I'm not going, those that are going can take it how they want to take it.

And what would those certain acts be? Can you give a few examples?

If my child was raped by a sex-crazed lunatic, I think I would want to set him on fire.

And why did you specify adult child?

Because Biblically speaking, children are saved.

Do children not go to hell?

No.

Yes that would be far more suitable. This isn't kindergarten.

You are right, it isn't. I will continue to appease you.

What makes you think I believe in God?

Accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Anything beyond that is irrelevant.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I'm not familiar with the 'Creator' book, but I know well the 'Christ' book. It is riddled with logical fallacies.

Logical fallacies like what?

Such as when 'investigating' areas of thought that atheists typically hold...he asks the theists about it, and not actual atheists.

He asked theists questions from an atheistic perspective.

...WLC is a cosmologist? From his own website, ReasonableFaith, it lists him having academic degrees in communication, philosophy of religion, church history and theology.
Doesn't sound like the kind of guy who is an expert on the formation of galaxies...

Yet he is able to give lectures on Beyond the Big Bang in front of an audience, some of whom are cosmologists..and also stand there and take questions from the audience as it relates to the lecture on cosmology...and he is able to answer each question knowledgeably on the subject matter of which he is lecturing..and he is also able to debate physicists such as Sean Carroll and Lawrence Krauss on science/cosmology.

I didn't say/imply that he is a cosmologist...I am saying he is an expert as it relates to the field of study.

But he never actually 'asks' the 'devil', does he? If he's supposed to be studying the case for Christ or case for a creator, why not ask those who don't believe Christ/creator, and get their views in the book?

Dude, if the book is called "The Case for Christ", why would he interview those who don't believe in Christ??? Makes no sense. See, you are so quick to stomp out the book that you wind up making these irrational statements. SMH.

I will just simply invite Kenisaw, or anyone else who is interested in the book to read it themselves. Read it, and draw your own conclusions.

[Justin108]

I get that, but why does it deserve eternal punishment?

Sinning against an eternal God deserves eternal punishment.

Special pleading.

Except, unlike burning to death, hell is an endless suffering.

Well, don't commit crimes that would lead to endless suffering.

A pathetic attempt at justifying the unjust. If your government sentenced you to death for looking at a cute girl, would you respond with "well, don't look at cute girls then"? Or would you recognize the horrible injustice in such a drastic response to such a petty crime?

Consider this. Literally everyone is a sinner. If literally everyone is a sinner, it suggests that sinning is in our nature, just as eating meat is in the nature of a tiger. Why then blame us for sinning? Why condemn us for eternity for sinning when it is in our nature? Especially since God, our creator, designed our nature? God is essentially designing us to be sinners, and then condemning us for being sinners. It makes absolutely no sense.

Would you think a parent who sets his children on fire is evil? Or would you just assume the children deserve it?

It depends. I can think of reasons.

Can you think of reasons why I deserve hell? List them and I'll tell you if they're true.

That still doesn't justify torture. If my kids ran away from home (i.e separated themselves from me), I wouldn't set them on fire the moment I catch up with them.

Then you apparently ain't God.

Are you saying I should set my children on fire for running away?

I get that. But why am I eternally punished?

The bigger question is, why would you reject God's love and subject yourself to God's judgement?

Stop changing my questions and answer them. Why am I eternally punished?

That is just a testament as to how much God hates sin.

Then why did he design us to be sinners??

Does the fact that God hates sin justify how he treats us? Is his hate for sin greater than his love for us? Suppose a parent absolutely hated alcohol.One day he finds his kid drunk. In response, he stabs his kid to death. Does the fact that he hates alcohol justify what he did?

The key is; don't be subjected to God's wrath

A rather cowardly approach, but whatever works for you. Serving a tyrant is fine, as long as you do as he says, right? Your morality seems to amount to might makes right. Given that, our discussions probably won't be going on for much longer. Frankly, your morality disgusts me. As does your cowardice.

Would you be perfectly fine with it if you heard that North Korea was imprisoning and torturing people and then sentencing them to death for watching porn?

No, because North Koreans are contingent beings whose laws/standards are subjective.

More special pleading.

Oh is that so? So if someone were to be sentenced to death for stealing a chocolate bar from the candy shop, you would be ok with that? I mean death is the accepted punishment for sin after all, and theft is a sin.

You are talking about man-made laws, and comparing it to God's laws. Apples/Oranges.

Actually I'm imagining a scenario where man adopted God's laws. If sin, any sin, deserves death, then by that logic a person convicted of theft would have to be put to death.

If God was merciful, he wouldn't have made the wage for sin death to begin with.

I guess we all have our opinions.

In other words, you can't refute my logic.

Basically, God made a law that sentences people to death for sinning, and then he invented a loophole for his own law to have us wiggle out of that sentence.

Problem?

If the problem is not readily apparent, then you're either dishonest or you lack basic comprehension. Either way, an explanation would be wasted on you.

Why would he do that?

Why would God give us a way out? Hmm.

If he wanted us to have a way out, why did he invent the law to begin with?

Either
1. He wants us to die for our sins (in which case he should keep the law without any loopholes)
or
2. He does not want us to die for our sins (in which case, why did he make it a law in the first place?)

If he wasn't happy with the wages for sin being death, then why did he instate that to begin with?

If God doesn't exist, then why worry yourself about such things?

Use this cop-out one more time and I end this debate. I am speaking in hypotheticals. That fact is blatantly obvious.

Let's try this again.

If he wasn't happy with the wages for sin being death, then why did he instate that to begin with?

We already get a physical death regardless, so what's the point of the animal?

There is a different in dying eventually...and dying right now.

Are you saying that, if the Jews didn't sacrifice animals, they would die the moment they sin?

Why was there a need for a new covenant? What's wrong with the old one?

Maybe he wanted to exhibit his love for us...literally once and for all.

Why didn't he do that from the start? Did he not love us during the old covenant?

So God had his own son tortured

Jesus is God, so in essence, Jesus volunteered himself.

So God tortured himself? Why on earth would he do that? Again, using the parent analogy. If a kid did something wrong and his mother responded by cutting her wrists while yelling "look what you made me do!", she would lose her kids and be taken to a mental institution.

Again, 1 Corinthians 1:18 "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Not everyone will understand and/or accept the message for the very reason that you don't.

Got it. So you can't explain it, and so you appeal to a Biblical cop-out. This is Christianity and Apologetics, so you'd have to do better than that.

Who's fault is that? No one on earth is good enough. Who then can be to blame if not our creator? If literally every iPhone was faulty and defective, wouldn't you be blaming Apple for it?

No one is blaming anyone for not being good enough...

God is clearly blaming us for not being good enough. Why else is he sending us to hell? If we are good enough, why is God sending us to hell?

the point is for us to acknowledge that we aren't good enough, and also acknowledge that we need a redeemer.

Why aren't we good enough? Why did God design us so poorly that all of us end up sinning? Again, if all iPhones have batteries that explode after a few days, then clearly Apple is at fault for their poor design. If all people sin after a few years of life, then clearly God is at fault for his poor design.

Why is that necessary?

Because God said it is necessary.

In other words, you have no idea. You have no rebuttal, and so you resort to "because God says so". I am getting really close to just giving up on you entirely.

Hell is a bit more than a "spanking" wouldn't you say?

Well, since I'm not going, those that are going can take it how they want to take it.

Wow. Ok I think that's where I call it. I can only take so much selfish, cowardice rationalization. You are utterly void of anything resembling morality, a backbone, logical thinking, or anything that would make a conversation with you worth my time. Will I get banned for this micro-rant? Possibly. Will it be worth it? Absolutely.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Special pleading.

It is what it is. Jump on the bandwagon or get left behind.

A pathetic attempt at justifying the unjust. If your government sentenced you to death for looking at a cute girl, would you respond with "well, don't look at cute girls then"?

Hey, obey the laws of the land...and if you don't like the laws of the land...then change the laws.

Or would you recognize the horrible injustice in such a drastic response to such a petty crime?

What you call petty may be a big deal to God.

Consider this. Literally everyone is a sinner. If literally everyone is a sinner, it suggests that sinning is in our nature, just as eating meat is in the nature of a tiger. Why then blame us for sinning?

A wise man once said, "You can't stop a bird from landing on your head, but you can stop it from building a nest."

Just because it is in our nature to do it, doesn't mean that we give in to it. We try. We fight...and since we accept the fact that we aren't perfect and we need a redeemer. Jesus Christ.

Why condemn us for eternity for sinning when it is in our nature? Especially since God, our creator, designed our nature? God is essentially designing us to be sinners, and then condemning us for being sinners. It makes absolutely no sense.

It makes a lot of sense..think about it; we all sin, no one is perfect...yet, some people are going to hell, while others aren't.....yet, we all sin, right?

So what separates those that are going to hell, and those that aren't? Answer: Jesus Christ.

Can you think of reasons why I deserve hell? List them and I'll tell you if they're true.

I can do you one better; I can think of reasons why I deserve hell. However, I've accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and God is a living reality in my life...despite my moral shortcomings.

Are you saying I should set my children on fire for running away?

No...you keep mentioning adolescent children, who are saved...and comparing them to adult children who freely rejected Jesus Christ. Apples/Oranges...faulty comparison.

Stop changing my questions and answer them. Why am I eternally punished?

I've made it clear to not just you, but to others...on countless threads and posts...that according to Christian theology; anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior will not be granted eternal life, and are therefore subjected to God's wrath.

Does that answer your question?

Then why did he design us to be sinners??

He didn't design us to be sinners...unless you are suggesting that he designed us to be sinners by giving us free will. If God gives us free will, he cannot guarantee that we will make the right decisions 100% of the time...thus, sin.

Or, he could have not given us free will, and therefore we would be created, yet programmed to do what is right/wrong...and programmed to accept and love him. But I doubt that if you obviously don't want to accept and love him with free will, then you wouldn't want to be programmed to love and accept him.

So in essence, you were granted free will to either accept or reject the message...and you freely choose to reject the message.

So, that is on you.

Does the fact that God hates sin justify how he treats us?

It justifies his love for us...that he would give up his only begotten son for us...that should tell you something.

Is his hate for sin greater than his love for us? Suppose a parent absolutely hated alcohol.One day he finds his kid drunk. In response, he stabs his kid to death. Does the fact that he hates alcohol justify what he did?

The parent ain't God.

A rather cowardly approach, but whatever works for you. Serving a tyrant is fine, as long as you do as he says, right?

I don't look at God as a tyrant, tho. And yes, I am bound by God's law...if he says it is right, it is right...if he say it is wrong, it is wrong. I don't really expect lost souls to understand, because as I once said, it is the accountability part that most people have a problem with, as you are illustrating with your question above.

People don't like being told what to do, or else.

Your morality seems to amount to might makes right. Given that, our discussions probably won't be going on for much longer. Frankly, your morality disgusts me. As does your cowardice.

I am bound by God's law...you can call me what you want because at the end of the day, living right by God is all that matters to me...not the opinion of mere contingent human beings who can't even justify/explain the origins and truth value of their own morality.

Would you be perfectly fine with it if you heard that North Korea was imprisoning and torturing people and then sentencing them to death for watching porn?

No, because North Koreans are contingent beings whose laws/standards are subjective.

More special pleading.

Special pleading? Are they not?

Actually I'm imagining a scenario where man adopted God's laws. If sin, any sin, deserves death, then by that logic a person convicted of theft would have to be put to death.

Oh, then yes. All sin deserves death.

If God was merciful, he wouldn't have made the wage for sin death to begin with.

I guess we all have our opinions.

In other words, you can't refute my logic.

I don't have to refute it...we just have two different definitions of mercy, and its levels.

If the problem is not readily apparent, then you're either dishonest or you lack basic comprehension. Either way, an explanation would be wasted on you.

Then waste not.

If he wanted us to have a way out, why did he invent the law to begin with?

Either
1. He wants us to die for our sins (in which case he should keep the law without any loopholes)
or
2. He does not want us to die for our sins (in which case, why did he make it a law in the first place?)

But he already gave us a way out...so there is no "if". He can and he did. We are talking about something that is past tense, not hypothethicals, as you are supposing.

Use this cop-out one more time and I end this debate. I am speaking in hypotheticals. That fact is blatantly obvious.

Temper, temper. LOL. You can end the debate all you want...my eternal life is already clinched.

Let's try this again.

If he wasn't happy with the wages for sin being death, then why did he instate that to begin with?

I don't like the question being phrased as "if he wasn't happy". Look, death is a punishment for sin...God doesn't like punishing anyone, however, he must inflict discipline upon his children...being the God of justice that he is.

Are you saying that, if the Jews didn't sacrifice animals, they would die the moment they sin?

Probably so. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of sacrificing the animals, would they

Why didn't he do that from the start? Did he not love us during the old covenant?

Dude, either way, there was an atonement system in place for sin...whether it was the old or new covenant...a system was in place. So why you are asking a question about "love" in this context, I don't know.

So God tortured himself? Why on earth would he do that? Again, using the parent analogy. If a kid did something wrong and his mother responded by cutting her wrists while yelling "look what you made me do!", she would lose her kids and be taken to a mental institution.

A better example would be if a mother's son piss a gang off...and the gang come to the house to kill the son for what they believe to be a death-worthy punishment...they kick in the door, and point their guns towards the son...but the mother, loving her son so much, knowingly jumps in the way of the gun, and subsequently being killed.

The gang looks at the dead mother, and the son grieving over his dead mother...and they think to themselves, "This kid has suffered enough, his mother is dead, and he is traumatized...and now he knows not to f' with us again"....and they leave.

The gang represents the Father.
The mother represents the Son.
The son represents mankind.

Now, I just put things in its proper perspective. Next time, leave it there.

Got it. So you can't explain it, and so you appeal to a Biblical cop-out. This is Christianity and Apologetics, so you'd have to do better than that.

We are talking about Christian theology, and I am backing up some of what I say with Scripture...and besides, I explained it as best as I can. You don't accept it, so hey.

Jesus own disciples deserted him for this reason (John 6:58-66). I guess he had a difficult time explaining it, too.

Either you are going to accept Christ, or not...you choose not...and that is on you.

God is clearly blaming us for not being good enough. Why else is he sending us to hell? If we are good enough, why is God sending us to hell?

If by "us" you mean "those who are going to hell"....it is because you've rejected the Son.

Why aren't we good enough? Why did God design us so poorly that all of us end up sinning?

I've answered this already.

Again, if all iPhones have batteries that explode after a few days, then clearly Apple is at fault for their poor design. If all people sin after a few years of life, then clearly God is at fault for his poor design.

I've already answered this.

In other words, you have no idea. You have no rebuttal, and so you resort to "because God says so". I am getting really close to just giving up on you entirely.

If God gives a command, it is necessary. That is Christian theism 101. If you are playing blackjack, and God says don't take a hit, then don't take a hit. If he says stay, you stay. Plain and simple.

Wow. Ok I think that's where I call it. I can only take so much selfish, cowardice rationalization. You are utterly void of anything resembling morality, a backbone, logical thinking, or anything that would make a conversation with you worth my time. Will I get banned for this micro-rant? Possibly. Will it be worth it? Absolutely.

Being banned from this great forum should be the least of your concerns without the blood of Christ, brethren.

[otseng]

You are utterly void of anything resembling morality, a backbone, logical thinking, or anything that would make a conversation with you worth my time. Will I get banned for this micro-rant? Possibly. Will it be worth it? Absolutely.

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