What if we put God aside?

[marco]

In one of the posts "what if" featured. Usually that solves nothing, but let's take it that the world has agreed, at least for a few years, to serve NO God, but put all former religious efforts and practices into paying attention to the poor and needy. Instead of thanking God for a robin's red breast or a daffodil's yellow bloom we would thank people for kindness and good works. We would still have our thieves, our killers and our abusers but the Law could deal with them without God's assistance, as it does now.

Would we have a better world? And why or why not?

[William]

[Replying to post 99 by 2timothy316]

I say, 'your statement suggesting we do nothing is false'

To be sure, the statement you were referring to was made by Member Marco in post # 87.

You say, 'the statement wasn't false'.

Not only that, but I also showed WHY it wasn't false;

The statement was aligned with the OP title. It is saying that rather than running around trying to find converts to support the JW idea of GOD, (or any idea of GOD for that matter) that this is an unnecessary addition to simply doing the right thing.

How am suppose to take that?

As the truth, because it is the truth.

Do you read the same words I do?

Of course. The problem isn't that, but in the way you decided to interpret the words. The words didn't need interpreting as they are quite understandable as they are written.

These were the words used.

That brings us back to the long-neglected OP - if we all made an effort to get on with each other, would it matter if we ignored God? Somalia for instance might produce food rather than mosques, and JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

You ignored what marco had written and went off on an unrelated tangent. I pulled you back from that in order that you might address what was actually said.

[marco]

So clear this all up for me. You agree that JWs don't just go door to door preaching but you see that we also do things for people in the way of helping in disasters, with material help as well as spiritual help and other practical ways. Let me type that again so there is no confusion. You understand we not only pray for help we actually go and help, both materially and spiritually. Yes or no.

I have already made everything crystal clear. You misinterpreted or read more into my statements than was there.

When JWs go from door to door do they bring food and money? Yes or no? If so, then what I said might have a chance of being false. I suggest you read my reply again and amend your wrong interpretation.

Given that you mistreat a simple statement, of which I am the knowing author, in this fashion I am even less inclined to believe that Scripture is well interpreted. I would be pretty certain that Christ on the cross said: "You'll be with me in Paradise today" rather then "Hi there, it is today! You will be with me in Paradise (sometime in the far future).

I would have expected a simple: "I misunderstood" rather than a question for me on my interpretation of my own words.

[William]

[Replying to post 102 by marco]

Given that you mistreat a simple statement, of which I am the knowing author, in this fashion I am even less inclined to believe that Scripture is well interpreted. I would be pretty certain that Christ on the cross said: "You'll be with me in Paradise today" rather then "Hi there, it is today! You will be with me in Paradise (sometime in the far future).

(My emphasis)

This is very relevant and something I have pondered on myself in regard to JWs and bible interpretations, and observing the manner in which JW members interacting with myself and others on this site, the same thought went through my head yesterday and I was going to make the same point as you have now done (my emphasis).

'Know them by their fruits'

As 2timothy316 has remarked recently, (see my reply to that here) the JWs on this site are not here to debate or discuss so much as they are here to find potential converts - the same thing which motivates them to knock on peoples doors.

Quote from that post linked and my answer to it;

We are looking for those that are being called by Jehovah and they are drawn in by what the Bible has to say. You don't know this but I have had many private conversations with people from these forums. Some that have ended with them looking deeper into jw.org or even going to a Kingdom Hall.

Hearsay. If they are in any way people of integrity they not only will speak out to verify your claim, but also they would be closely observing the manner in which you (and apparently all members of the JW culture) respond to perfectly legitimate concerns.

At least you don't hide the fact that the JWs are here in this forum scouting for converts. Not that it isn't obvious. But is is against forum rules.

10. Spamming (duplicate posts, advertisements, etc) or solicitations are not allowed anywhere on the forum (posts, signatures, and PM).

The consistent use of JW imagery is 'spamming' as far as I can tell. especially in relation to it being used to scout out potential converts. Also - while preaching to a certain extent is tolerated, there are guidelines regarding this;

This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize.

My overall thoughts on this type of tactic being employed that it is a waste of time and effort engaging with those motivated by such tactics because they are specifically not here to answer legitimate questions pertaining to the contradictory nature of their belief systems and subsequent holes in their reasoning. They are not here to be educated by those they believe are apostates. They are here scouting for potential converts and those potential converts are the ones who will accept their particular brand of Christianity without asking the 'awkward' questions.

Simply put, they are not interested in engaging with anyone who is willing to examine their beliefs and find holes in those beliefs.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 102 by marco]

You still can't answer with a yes or no, eh? So no you are not crystal clear, frankly you hardly ever are. I guess I will move along then, since you can't answer such simple questions.

Let me answer for you.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... er-relief/

From the article that Marco denies.

In times of need, Jehovah’s Witnesses provide assistance to fellow believers and others. They do so as an expression of love, an identifying mark of true Christians.—John 13:35.

[2timothy316]

Simply put, they are not interested in engaging with anyone who is willing to examine their beliefs and find holes in those beliefs.

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 105 by 2timothy316]

So I've followed your give and take, and don't understand why you are having troubles.

It is very clear to any observer that JW's have no profound or divine wisdom to impart: By inspection.
It is very clear that the Bible has a bunch of words, but so much of it is simply and absolutely wrong, it could not possibly be the book of a all-knowing or every vaguely aware creature.
Nor an all-powerful one.

[marco]

You still can't answer with a yes or no, eh? So no you are not crystal clear, frankly you hardly ever are. I guess I will move along then, since you can't answer such simple questions.

As Oscar Wilde said, the truth is rarely pure and never simple. Some questions do not admit of a yes/ no answer. "Have you stopped misinterpreting Scripture? Yes or no?" might be a good example.

As for your presentation about good works done, Matthew has something to say:
"But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth"


And amazingly, many charities, such as those run by the RC Church, do not wait for "times of need" - they do it all the time. But all this is irrelevant to the OP - you misunderstood the point that was being made and moved into advertising.

[OnceConvinced]

I mean and I'm the one accused of not doing anything? Wow....

Who accused you of doing nothing? Certainly not me. However if all you are doing is praying, then no, that's not actually doing anything as far as I can see.

As for myself, I do what I can to make the world a better place. Real things that is.

Yes, right here in YOUR country. Aren't you proud?

I'm not from the USA.

I already addressed this:
"The fact that he allowed himself to be tortured and crucified is irrelevant really. It was his plan that he should be tortured and crucified."

That was a case of Jesus undertaking a mission. His mission was to die for our sins, so he had no choice but to let them arrest him. The way I see it now is that he was trying to fulfil prophecy.

Are you just simply going to ignore the examples I gave of where Jesus drew the line when it come to bullying? The line was drawn and just like Jesus drew the line when it comes to bullying so should we. He didn't always bless his enemies. He didn't always turn the other cheek. Going on a rampage in the temple should surely show you that.

He didn't hit anyone though.

How do we know he didn't hit anyone? You think they would have just let him rampage through there and not even one person tried to stop him?

There is no record of Jesus ever hitting anyone.

There is very little record of things Jesus did. There are years missing too. Most of the things that were documented were like a brief description, leaving out lots of possibly important detail. Just because it was not recorded, does that mean it didn't happen?

What if there was and Christians didn't like it so edited those bits out?

All his power and how many wars did he partake in against Rome? None.

Is it recorded that Jesus was expected to take part in any war? It doesn't seem like him or any of his disciples were expected to go to war. They were all busy doing their thing. ie fishing, tax collecting etc.

And Rome was full of bullies. At the temple he was not fighting bullies. He was driving out people trying to clean his Father's house of corruption.

And how do you think he drove them out? By saying "Pretty please?"

Please show me just one scripture where Jesus protected a single person with violence. Just one.

Like I said earlier, there is very little recorded about what Jesus did. Even then not much detail was given. However in at least a couple of scenarios I gave you there is no way Jesus could have did what he did without some kind of physical defence or offence. Especially in the one where he had to escape the people who were about to throw him off the cliff. How do you think he got out of that one? By saying "Excuse me"?

Even when it comes to helping individuals we don't have enough detail in those cases. And imagine if Jesus karate kicked one of the bullies in the face. Would that little fact remain in there? Heck no, Christians would have edited that out. They wouldn't want that in the gospels when they're trying to promote Jesus as a pacifist.

What should be obvious even if Jesus did not use physical violence is that there are times where you need to stand up for yourself. Remember when Jesus taught about turning the other cheek, he wasn't just talking about hitting. He was talking about not taking revenge. So if he rampages through the temple, is that not taking revenge?

Where is the turning of the other cheek? The blessing of thy enemy? Where is the humility Jesus was supposed to have? There was none. There was no turning of the cheek there. Jesus was making a stand. He knew full well he couldn't let that stuff go on.

[OnceConvinced]

. Nothing gets done today because people have put God aside.

Nothing gets done because people would rather sit around praying, hoping God will save us, rather than actually getting up and taking action. Nothing also gets done because the problem is so huge and it's hard to come up with a solution that would be practical. God however could solve the whole problem with the spoken word if he wanted to.

"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness,

Some things need to be done in a timely manner. If not, then Jehovah has failed. eg what about the starving children that are being prayed for who are dying every day? How is Jehovah helping them?

BTW the entire scripture is being taken out of context. It is related to Jesus's return not general answers to prayer.

Do you care about the will of Krishna.

Yes. I need to know what people are promised by Krishna so that I understand why people worship her.

So you believe there is a god called Krishna then and this god has a will? You can claim to know what the will of Krishna is?

And what about all the other thousands of gods. Do you claim to care about their will too? Have you researched the wills of all of them and proven to yourself that that is their will?