Oaths: “. . , so help me God� (an alternative follows)

[2Dbunk]

Soon it will be a new year and I’ve been wrestling with the oath of office I’m expected to give in January. My compadres have elected me to lead their post-military detachment this coming year. They know I’m an Atheist but approve of me anyway – the present commander is worried that I won’t say “ . . , so help me God� and has suggested I say what everyone wants to hear rather than what is in my heart. I assured him there would be no problem.

But later I realized that I can’t do the God thing. However, I think I’ve come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone -- if they think-out what I will say:

“ . . , so help me ALL.�

It is a no-brainer that everyone should realize my antecedent to the oath includes God (if “He� exists). This way I am asking everyone in the room, including their God (whoever that might be, and if He or She is present), for their help ‘cause I’m surely going to need it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this – yes, most of the detachment is fairly religious and more conservative than I am.

[Divine Insight]

Is so, then you have just sworn to an oath anyway.

To say "yes" is to agree to this oath.

No, that would simply be saying, "yes, I will tell the truth".

I don't see the difference.

What about Wedding vows? Does Christ renounce Christian wedding vows:

Here is an example of traditional Christian wedding vows:

(Groom), please repeat these vows to your bride.

I, (groom’s name), take you, (bride’s name), to be my wedded wife; to have and to hold; from this day forward; for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish; until death parts us; this I solemnly swear; before Almighty God.

(Bride), please repeat these vows to your groom.

I, (bride), take you (groom), to be my wedded husband; to have and to hold; from this day forward; for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish; until death parts us; this I solemnly swear; before Almighty God.

Of course in this ceremony the groom and bride are being asked to repeat these vows including solemnly swearing before Almighty God.

Although many Christian sects have changed this up a bit to where the pastor starts these vows with "Do you,...." and then the groom and bride only need to say "yes" or more formally, "I do".

But in saying "Yes" they are agreeing that they are solemnly swearing before Almighty God.

In other words, just because they are only saying "yes" doesn't change what it is they are saying "yes" to.

~~~~~~~

This also applies to the courtroom thing.

If the person "swearing you in" (and that is what they are doing), says to you, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God".

And you simply say "yes", then by saying "yes" you have just confirmed that you swear to God that you will tell the truth.

Saying "yes" doesn't change the fact that you are being "sworn in".

You would need to say, "no", I refuse to "swear in".

[tam]

Is so, then you have just sworn to an oath anyway.

To say "yes" is to agree to this oath.

No, that would simply be saying, "yes, I will tell the truth".

I don't see the difference.

One is simply saying, yes, I will tell the truth... and the other is swearing upon something (such as God, or the bible, or your own life, or the lives of your loved ones, etc.)

For instance, lets say Peter did not just say, "I will never do this." (deny Christ) Let's say Peter instead said, "I swear on my life that I will never do this." Or, "I swear to God that I will never do this."

Now he will have broken an oath that he made to God; rather than just having spoken something untrue. Or technically, if he swore on his life, then his life is now forfeit.

Here is an example of traditional Christian wedding vows:

(Groom), please repeat these vows to your bride.

I, (groom’s name), take you, (bride’s name), to be my wedded wife; to have and to hold; from this day forward; for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish; until death parts us; this I solemnly swear; before Almighty God.

(Bride), please repeat these vows to your groom.

I, (bride), take you (groom), to be my wedded husband; to have and to hold; from this day forward; for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish; until death parts us; this I solemnly swear; before Almighty God.

Of course in this ceremony the groom and bride are being asked to repeat these vows including solemnly swearing before Almighty God.

Although many Christian sects have changed this up a bit to where the pastor starts these vows with "Do you,...." and then the groom and bride only need to say "yes" or more formally, "I do".

But in saying "Yes" they are agreeing that they are solemnly swearing before Almighty God.

In other words, just because they are only saying "yes" doesn't change what it is they are saying "yes" to.

Yes, but that is including swearing to God. I don't recall that as part of my wedding vows (been twenty years though and before I started listening to my Lord). But then, I was married by a JP, so maybe it was not part of them. People can also write their own vows and none of them have to include swearing to God or upon God.

It says something, doesn't it, that "Christianity" would make people do something that Christ warned against doing? Especially knowing how many marriages end in divorce long before death (and not just due to adultery).


There is a difference between having a contract (including a verbal contract such as what each party, such as a bride and groom, promises to do), and swearing to or upon God, or upon your life or the lives of your loved ones.

This also applies to the courtroom thing.

If the person "swearing you in" (and that is what they are doing), says to you, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God".

And you simply say "yes", then by saying "yes" you have just confirmed that you swear to God that you will tell the truth.

Yes... but in your first example (previous response) you had not added in the 'so help you God' part.

We don't have to do that here in Canada. We can just affirm that we are going to tell the truth, without swearing to or upon anything.

Those in the US (or anywhere else) who are requiring people to swear to or upon God (or anything/anyone sacred) are the ones who are in the wrong in demanding such a thing. Why make someone swear to God, when it is known that men will often lie to save their own skin, or out of fear for themselves or their loved ones? Where is the love for your fellow man or for God in putting someone in harm's way like that, even if the harm is just to cause them fear and/or sorrow because they broke an oath to God?

People also don't often think their oaths through (like Jephtha when he had to keep his oath to God and sacrifice his daughter, though he did not have to make such an oath to begin with).


Best to just let your yes be your yes, and your no be your no.



I also feel the necessity to point these words out from earlier as well:

Regardless, what I would or would not do is between me and Christ, and what someone else does or does not do is between them and Christ. I am not judging.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts about my OP. Sharing these thoughts with my wife was interesting (what I say may well dictate whether she attends the meeting and luncheon -- kind of a new year social. If you think I'm hardcore in my opinions, your ears should be burning DI as she figures you are waffling on the issue). But what DI says makes sense.

TAM brings up the continual conflicting religious interpretations of the Bible -- the never ending "He" says this but means that; Oaths are bad according to scripture but necessarily used by "His" adherents

I'm leaning toward saying ALL because they must accept my spirit totally. The job is not important enough to me to worry about ruffled feathers. In my lifetime I've already given too much of the benefit of the doubt to religious and politically absurd elements of our society. Granted, my stand on principle will be miniscule but it's a start toward rationalization, normalizing religious fervor.

[tam]

Peace to you 2Dbunk!

I meant to ask you how it went. I totally respect if you do not wish to put it out there, or if you do now wish to share others' reactions (or non-reactions). I was just curious.


Peace again!

[wiploc]

... I won’t say “ . . , so help me God�

I've never understood that. I can't parse it. Nobody has explained it to me intelligibly.

I once had a magistrate try to swear me in, "Do you solemnly swear ... so help you god?"

I said, "Sure, all except for that religious bit at the end, which I don't understand."

She said, "Do you affirm?"

And I said, "Happy to."

And that was that. We went on to other things. I call that informal.

Another time I tried to coach a court reporter--so she wouldn't be surprised in court--on how to have me affirm rather than swear. She said, "I'm not doin' that." I thought, Okay for you. But someone overhearing this exchange straightened her out. She was willing to take instruction from someone she knew and trusted.

That was a long time ago. I wouldn't expect court reporters to need coaching these days.

“ . . , so help me ALL.�

Since I don't know what the other version means, I don't know what this one does either. Though your interpretation is clear; I understand that; I just don't think that meaning is analogous to whatever the original version means.

I suspect--for no identifiable reason--that "as god is my witness" is a different translation of the same phrase that produced "so help me god."

Maybe somebody here can straighten me out.

[wiploc]

And at the end they typically say, "So help me God", and you are supposed to repeat those same words.

My understanding is that this phrase isn't part of the presidential oath. Presidents just like to add it on.

If you don't want to have to say specific words, it's probably best to work that out ahead of time with the person who will be swearing you in and ask if there are alternative words they could use for that part of the process.

Yes, the presidents elect work it out ahead of time so the Justice adds the phrase on.

[William]

If you stuff up after asking for GODs help, is it then GODs fault?

If you don't believe in GOD why ask for GODs help anyway?

It is the same as swearing allegiance and loyalty to a flag - it is a symbol of service and people expect and require such oaths to be spoken as a sign that you are one of them.

Of course you can go along with the charade if you feel that you are actually one of them because most of them are probably going along with the charade anyway, right?

[Cinderella Man]

[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

I think your solution is a good one, it suggests that you aren't alone in your work, which you aren't, yet it isn't dishonest, which is what I would say they are asking you to be. I would not reference god in any oath, nor would I place my hand on any religious book or article and anyone who expects you to do this has little integrity. They are asking you to lie, plain and simple. Until we push back on this Christian privilege, Christians will continue to foist it upon us.