Why would anyone in their right mind reject God?

[OnceConvinced]

Let's say for arguments sake that the god of the bible is loving, merciful and wonderful. He is not a monster who wants to make people suffer. He is actually a loving god who wants us all to be saved. Everything he has done that seems evil has been done for righteous reasons, even if we can't see what they are. He truly loves us and there will be no suffering for all eternity.

Why would any one in their right mind reject this god?

Bear these factors in mind too:

Rejecting the god of the bible would mean:
-You are no longer covered by his grace.
-You are no longer eligible for eternal life in paradise. You will be mortal!
-There would be no godly plan for your life. No godly purpose
- You will no longer have supernatural backing to aid you.
-You will no longer have the peace of mind that there is a god protecting you and meeting all your needs
-You may no longer have the peace of mind that there is a god in control of this world's destiny
-You will no longer have the belief that there is a god who you can cast all your cares upon.
- Any prayers you may pray will be worthless.
- You may find yourself shunned by Christian family and friends. (who once provided a community for you to be part of)
- You may be persecuted for being an atheist.

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

[marco]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

Do you think that when people no longer accept God they plunge into immorality? Many who believe commit the most atrocious acts in his name. Perhaps it depends on which name one gives God; he seems to react differently under different titles. I like him best as Jesus, meek and mild, the good shepherd, weaver of wonderful parables.

[FarWanderer]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

Do you think that when people no longer accept God they plunge into immorality?

No. Moral responsibility and moral action are not quite the same. One may act in accordance with an obligation never acknowledged, or one may make a promise only to break it.

Many who believe commit the most atrocious acts in his name.

What you find atrocious another may find morally obligatory. Or perhaps they are being insincere in their claim to morality.

I find that often times both are at play, at different levels of consciousness/subconsciousness.

[OnceConvinced]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

But also take into consideration that the bible teaches that if you are not under god, then you are a slave to sin, so in reality you won't be free. You will be under the bondage of sin. So your freedom from moral responsibility is only an illusion. You are not free at all. In fact the bible teaches that when you come to Jesus, that's when you will truly be set free.

Now if the above paragraph is true, what would make you think you will be free?

Also wouldn't it be better to remain under the grace of god when it comes to moral freedom? You can always ask him for forgiveness if you need to (just as long as you're sincere).

[FarWanderer]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

Well, that's not right now. Also not sure Hell is different in this regard. Can we even affect anything in the afterlife?

But also take into consideration that the bible teaches that if you are not under god, then you are a slave to sin, so in reality you won't be free. You will be under the bondage of sin. So your freedom from moral responsibility is only an illusion. You are not free at all. In fact the bible teaches that when you come to Jesus, that's when you will truly be set free.

Being a slave to one thing doesn't mean you can't be free from another thing. You get to choose to be free from moral responsibility but a slave to sin, or to be a slave to moral responsibility but free from sin. Which, if either, is "truly free" is for me to decide.

Also wouldn't it be better to remain under the grace of god when it comes to moral freedom? You can always ask him for forgiveness if you need to (just as long as you're sincere).

I think that if you go with such an insincere approach, you will fail to be sincere in the end.

[OnceConvinced]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

Well, that's not right now.

But it's not even a blink in the eye of eternity. Surely 80-90 years of moral restriction is a small price to pay for an eternity of moral freedom?

But also take into consideration that the bible teaches that if you are not under god, then you are a slave to sin, so in reality you won't be free. You will be under the bondage of sin. So your freedom from moral responsibility is only an illusion. You are not free at all. In fact the bible teaches that when you come to Jesus, that's when you will truly be set free.

Being a slave to one thing doesn't mean you can't be free from another thing. You get to choose to be free from moral responsibility but a slave to sin, or to be a slave to moral responsibility but free from sin. Which, if either, is "truly free" is for me to decide.

But surely it's worth making a few sacrifices now in this 80-90 years on earth for an eternity of bliss and moral freedom? Why would you want to miss out on an eternity of bliss just so you can have 80-90 years of moral freedom now? Isn't that a little short sighted?

Also wouldn't it be better to remain under the grace of god when it comes to moral freedom? You can always ask him for forgiveness if you need to (just as long as you're sincere).

I think that if you go with such an insincere approach, you will fail to be sincere in the end.

I don't know about that. Everyone struggles with certain "sins". As a Christian I struggled with some and every time I sinned I felt bad about it and genuinely asked God for forgiveness. I even knew that I would probably fail again, even though I didn't want to fail. Even when I was determined never to fail again, I still eventually did and then I was genuinely repentant once again. When I prayed for forgiveness, even for the same things over and over I was sincerely repentant each time.

We as human's are weak and even the God of the bible knows this, which is why he is faithful and just...

1 John: 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

He even promises to keep forgiving us:

Matthew: 18:21-22
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

So as long as we are under Jesus we have that grace upon our lives, no matter how often we screw up. There appears to be no logical reason to reject God simply so one can sin. Why do away with that covering of grace?

The thing is now, even as an ex-Christian I still feel bad when I fail at the same thing over and over. You may say I have moral freedom, no longer being a Christian, but I disagree. I still have empathy and compassion, so that still prevents me from having moral freedom. I have to live with myself and others.

So there's another reason why it makes no sense to reject God so one can have moral freedom. You still don't really have moral freedom. You still have to live with yourself and others. You are still expected to follow certain moral standards in society. You still have the laws of the land you have to obey. Your conscience still exists.

[FarWanderer]

What could possibly make you ever want to give up all the benefits that come with believing in God?

Freedom. From moral responsibility.

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

Well, that's not right now.

But it's not even a blink in the eye of eternity. Surely 80-90 years of moral restriction is a small price to pay for an eternity of moral freedom?

I brought up the (redacted) question of whether we can affect anything in the afterlife because without causal efficacy I cannot see our existence in Heaven as "moral freedom".

In other words, "freedom from moral responsibility" doesn't matter if we lack the capacity to produce consequences with our actions.

Also wouldn't it be better to remain under the grace of god when it comes to moral freedom? You can always ask him for forgiveness if you need to (just as long as you're sincere).

I think that if you go with such an insincere approach, you will fail to be sincere in the end.

I don't know about that. Everyone struggles with certain "sins". As a Christian I struggled with some and every time I sinned I felt bad about it and genuinely asked God for forgiveness. I even knew that I would probably fail again, even though I didn't want to fail. Even when I was determined never to fail again, I still eventually did and then I was genuinely repentant once again. When I prayed for forgiveness, even for the same things over and over I was sincerely repentant each time.

We as human's are weak and even the God of the bible knows this, which is why he is faithful and just...

1 John: 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

He even promises to keep forgiving us:

Matthew: 18:21-22
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

So as long as we are under Jesus we have that grace upon our lives, no matter how often we screw up. There appears to be no logical reason to reject God simply so one can sin. Why do away with that covering of grace?

The thing is now, even as an ex-Christian I still feel bad when I fail at the same thing over and over.

I was going to say that the inevitability of failure to live up to one's ideals is not a uniquely Christian problem, but you went ahead and said it yourself.

No matter how many times you fail, you must keep striving towards the ideal. Don't give up, even knowing you'll keep on failing. This is one of the most fundamental challenges of Being, whatever your religion may be. The concept of sin and repentance is Christianity's guide to how to deal with this problem.

To simply sin as you please with the plan of repenting at the last minute is to not even be aiming for the ideal. That's a far graver sin than aiming and missing. It's a sin that must itself be repented. But if you think it's OK now, why would you think it wouldn't be OK when the time comes?

You may say I have moral freedom, no longer being a Christian, but I disagree. I still have empathy and compassion, so that still prevents me from having moral freedom. I have to live with myself and others.

So there's another reason why it makes no sense to reject God so one can have moral freedom. You still don't really have moral freedom. You still have to live with yourself and others. You are still expected to follow certain moral standards in society. You still have the laws of the land you have to obey. Your conscience still exists.

Do you consider yourself a slave to empathy and compassion? I certainly don't see it that way. I see it as those emotions being you, not some alien forces dictating your behavior.

[ttruscott]

Let's say for arguments sake that the god of the bible is loving, merciful and wonderful. He is not a monster who wants to make people suffer. He is actually a loving god who wants us all to be saved. Everything he has done that seems evil has been done for righteous reasons, even if we can't see what they are. He truly loves us and there will be no suffering for all eternity.

Why would any one in their right mind reject this god?

Why?

Necessary background:
We were created for the purpose of entering into the loving communion of a perfect marriage with GOD, as evidenced by the marriage of the Church to the Lamb is the next and final step in our story after the judgement day of the eternally sinful ones.

Our free will was an absolute necessity to achieve this purpose because without our free will (uncoerced, non-constrained) acceptance of HIM, there can be no true love and without our free will acceptance of HIS marriage proposal, the marriage would be a rape, not a real marriage.

Also, this allowed those who didn't want to accept HIS proposals and claims to reject them so no one who did not accept HIM or who rejected marriage with HIM was forced into a loveless marriage with HIM.

As well, proof of HIS claims to be our GOD and that hell was a reality would have coerced everyone to accept HIM as GOD and to accept HIS proposal of marriage whether they actually wanted to accept HIM or not! Therefore HE could not prove HIS claims to us but could only make HIS claims without proof and we could only put our faith, our unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD or put our faith, our unproven hope, in HIS being in fact a liar and a false god.

So therefore,
I contend that no one rejected this GOD as a proven GOD but only rejected HIS claims to be our GOD. Some hints seem to be given that suggest pride caused their rebellion when faced with what to do with these Three Persons who claimed to be our ONE TRUE GOD, the pride of suddenly having to accept that no matter what their attainments, there would always be someone above and better than themselves. They started to think about their feelings of independence and feelings of self worth until these turned sour in their minds and they rebelled.

I contend that no one who knew GOD in the fullness of HIS revelations would ever rebel against HIM because that revelation comes with the inevitability of their becoming eternally evil and the necessity of their being banished to the outer darkness. This aligns very well with the incredulity of the original post...

[ttruscott]

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

This claim does not mean that you cannot therefore chose evil. The reason there is no desire to do evil in heaven is that no one will ever choose it again and start the whole world experience of the cleansing of reality from evil that we are currently going through.

[OnceConvinced]

But you'll get that in Heaven. You will have eternity to be free of moral responsibility. In Heaven you will have no desire to do anything evil anyway.

This claim does not mean that you cannot therefore chose evil. The reason there is no desire to do evil in heaven is that no one will ever choose it again and start the whole world experience of the cleansing of reality from evil that we are currently going through.

Seems to me you are agreeing with what I said.

Nothing is stopping you from doing evil in Heaven. You simply have no desire to do evil. (which is kind of like me now on Earth). You are simply choosing not to do evil acts. ie you have moral freedom.

Although I can't see that working well in Heaven. People will always unwittingly do things that hurt others, even if they have good intentions. Do one thing to please one person and you may be doing something that hurts someone else.

The other thing is although we may have no desire to do something wrong, we can do it without realising. I sometimes open my mouth and say things I shouldn't which upsets some people, but it's not because I wanted to upset them.

Just having no desire to sin in no way is any guarantee there will be no sin. God would have to go one step further and put some kind of preventions in place that stop people from unwittingly sinning and from unintentionally causing others pain.

I've decided to start a new thread on that topic:
viewtopic.php?p=907864#907864

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 3:

Excluding mental illness, I don't see why anyone would want to ignore such a wonderful, perfect being

I propose those who believe in a "wonderful, perfect being" they can't show exists might suffer themselves that same "mental illness" you propose for those who reject unsubstantiated claims of a god you can't show exists.

But that's not reality or common sense as far as I can see it.

Funny how you mention reality and common sense, as you propose folks are mentally defective for their not believing claims that can't be shown to be reality.

"Mental illness" is indeed a factor when we encounter folks who declare a god they can't show exists has properties they can't show he does.

Where "common sense" is the standard, we encounter an argument from numbers.

If everybody thought your argument wasn't goofy, does that mean it ain't?

But I've never been one that 'goes along with the crowd'

As you declare you can't see why some of us don't go along with the crowd of folks who think there's a god based on a crowd thinking there is one.

You declare such a "wonderful, perfect being", while not showing this being exists, while not showing this being possesses "wonderful", while not showing this being possesses "perfect", while not showing this being is a being.

I propose you'd do well to examine your own potential for mental illness before you utter such a term in defence of your own unproven beliefs.