I've heard it said in order to fully understand God/the bible, you have to use the holy spirit.
But would seem to indicate that everyone who 'understood' the bible throughout history should have use the holy spirit.
Does that include the people who thought mental illness was the devil processing them?
Or that drinking, dancing or long hair was sinful?
What about inter-racial dating and even worse - marriage?
Those who support gay marriage?
Those who support abundant riches (they claim God will make you rich here on earth)?
Of the pope who help the Nazis escape because (seemingly) they were doing the right thing by killing Jews?
The point is this:
Today, modern Christians think they know the 'right' way to interpret the bible and understand God.
Odds are very good (certain?) that the people who believed the above also made such claims.
So who's right? Those that said 'the bible says long hair/dancing is a sin' or those that, today, say 'nah it's not a sin - that's silly!' ?
Or, does God change as society evolves: was long hair a sin 90 years ago and not now?
How can you, as a Christian, be sure you're hearing the holy spirit correctly?
Holy understanding
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Re: Holy understanding
Post #11That is the prospective of the rationalist. I personally think that empathy is much more important than rationality. The ability to see things from another perspective grants one the ability to entertain the irrational as well as the rational, and many things are beyond reasoning.marco wrote: To a thinking hammer, not everything is a nail, and thought makes all the difference.
Re: Holy understanding
Post #12bluethread wrote:That is the prospective of the rationalist. I personally think that empathy is much more important than rationality. The ability to see things from another perspective grants one the ability to entertain the irrational as well as the rational, and many things are beyond reasoning.marco wrote: To a thinking hammer, not everything is a nail, and thought makes all the difference.
Empathy isn't opposed to rationality. The ability to see things in another perspective is the stuff of mental industry. Faith in an invisible land with invisible beings does not grant us electricity nor the power to communicate over great distances nor lead drinking water to our homes. Faith will not buy us food. It might create a coloured picture of what is not and what might be. Many things are beyond reason, but reason picks itself up and does what it can, accepting what it cannot. It has no need to believe it can move mountains, except imaginary ones.
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Re: Holy understanding
Post #13Interesting, I have to wonder what documentation we have to establish this was under the direct orders of the Pope, rather than say the brave actions of individual groups of Catholics acting on their God given consciences, despite the silence of the church higher authorities. Can you provide references? Did your source?marco wrote: However, it came to light that the Pope in fact saved possibly thousands of Jews by sheltering them in monasteries.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Holy understanding
Post #14marco wrote:
* In 1939, A.W. Klieforth, the US consul general based in Cologne, Germany, wrote a confidential letter to Washington reporting on the “extremeness� of Pacelli’s hatred of National Socialism and of Hitler.
* In 1947, at the United Nations, he encouraged the 17 Catholic countries out of the 33 in favor to vote for the partitioning of Palestine to create the State of Israel.
Thank you, this list makes interesting reading, however I notice a gap between when the war stared and when it ended, and it was once again safe to publically condemn national Socialism (and Facism) and speak out for minorities. I would be interested in documentation DURING the war when the heat, as it were, was really on. I'd be particularly interested in a public condemnation of Hitler and a call for German Catholics not to support his movement on spiritual/moral grounds.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Holy understanding
Post #15JehovahsWitness wrote:
Thank you, this list makes interesting reading, however I notice a gap between when the war stared and when it ended, and it was once again safe to publically condemn national Socialism (and Facism) and speak out for minorities. I would be interested in documentation DURING the war when the heat, as it were, was really on. I'd be particularly interested in a public condemnation of Hitler and a call for German Catholics not to support his movement on spiritual/moral grounds.
If one's premise is that the Pope is some sort of demon, no evidence to the contrary will suffice. I have issues with Catholicism, but when a Jewish witness, previously hostile, submits evidence that the Pope helped many Jews, I can accept this.
The remaining difficulty is why didn't he shout from the Vatican rooftops that Hitler was bad. Was it cowardice? Or is it not obvious that since his uncertain freedom allowed him to carry out his rescue work it would have been ludicrous to shut off all the exit routes by stupidly making pointless criticisms. If the Pope went, so too would his protected convents and monasteries - and with them the Jews who had been saved.
But of course this suggests a good man, interested in the welfare of others, regardless of their religion, and it opposes the axiom that Popes are bad. Some were. Pius seems to have done his charity, as Christ suggested, without proclaiming it to the world. (See Matthew 6:3)
Re: Holy understanding
Post #16imhereforyou wrote: I've heard it said in order to fully understand God/the bible, you have to use the holy spirit.
But would seem to indicate that everyone who 'understood' the bible throughout history should have use the holy spirit.
Does that include the people who thought mental illness was the devil processing them?
Or that drinking, dancing or long hair was sinful?
What about inter-racial dating and even worse - marriage?
Those who support gay marriage?
Those who support abundant riches (they claim God will make you rich here on earth)?
Of the pope who help the Nazis escape because (seemingly) they were doing the right thing by killing Jews?
The point is this:
Today, modern Christians think they know the 'right' way to interpret the bible and understand God.
Odds are very good (certain?) that the people who believed the above also made such claims.
So who's right? Those that said 'the bible says long hair/dancing is a sin' or those that, today, say 'nah it's not a sin - that's silly!' ?
Or, does God change as society evolves: was long hair a sin 90 years ago and not now?
How can you, as a Christian, be sure you're hearing the holy spirit correctly?
why do you say that you have " heard it said " ? Do you really believe people and all that they tell you ?
Just read Gods word, the Scriptures with the view to believing His word and no other. Ask for guidance if you can humble yourself to the Lord ?
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Re: Holy understanding
Post #17There are two reasons why this ideal is not yet met:imhereforyou wrote:Surely if everyone, independent of time (assuming God remains the same forever), were led by the spirit, they would be in agreement with all things yes?
1. We are at war in our Spirits: Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. The efforts of the spiritual forces of evil are set to cause us great confusion as many people indeed follow a Spirit but it is not the Holy Spirit.
2. We are all still short of full sanctification and our residual attachment to sin still influences our thoughts and decisions adversely. Your question assumes we are all fully sanctified and righteous...
The ideal will only be met in heaven...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Holy understanding
Post #18from whom have you heard this ? Do you believe them ? Why not simply ASK GOD FOR HELP ?liamconnor wrote:imhereforyou wrote: I've heard it said in order to fully understand God/the bible, you have to use the holy spirit.
But would seem to indicate that everyone who 'understood' the bible throughout history should have use the holy spirit.
Does that include the people who thought mental illness was the devil processing them?
Or that drinking, dancing or long hair was sinful?
What about inter-racial dating and even worse - marriage?
Those who support gay marriage?
Those who support abundant riches (they claim God will make you rich here on earth)?
Of the pope who help the Nazis escape because (seemingly) they were doing the right thing by killing Jews?
The point is this:
Today, modern Christians think they know the 'right' way to interpret the bible and understand God.
Odds are very good (certain?) that the people who believed the above also made such claims.
So who's right? Those that said 'the bible says long hair/dancing is a sin' or those that, today, say 'nah it's not a sin - that's silly!' ?
Or, does God change as society evolves: was long hair a sin 90 years ago and not now?
How can you, as a Christian, be sure you're hearing the holy spirit correctly?
You asked a lot of questions, so I am unsure which is the one for debate. (In my opinion, the more disparate questions that appear, the more the OP appears to be a person's "thought journal" rather than a debate prompt).
Could you turn all of the above into a single debate question? Perhaps, "The Bible says a lot of things which seem highly contextual and even taboo; how are we to know which parts apply to us?"
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Re: Holy understanding
Post #19It's always uplifting to see theists openly confess that their religion is irrational. But at the same time it's a bit depressing to realize that they don't see any problem with this.bluethread wrote:That is the prospective of the rationalist. I personally think that empathy is much more important than rationality. The ability to see things from another perspective grants one the ability to entertain the irrational as well as the rational, and many things are beyond reasoning.marco wrote: To a thinking hammer, not everything is a nail, and thought makes all the difference.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Re: Holy understanding
Post #20Good question, but I am sure that the answer is also in Scripture, Gods Word. Also, actually asking GOD for help is a good idea...prayer and faith in all HIS promises..imhereforyou wrote:Interesting point - food for thought, though this wasn't a Pope bashing topic if it came across that way.marco wrote:The problem with not letting your left hand know what the right is doing is that people interpret no news as bad news. However, it came to light that the Pope in fact saved possibly thousands of Jews by sheltering them in monasteries. And how would he let people know he was doing this? So he is accused of not doing enough. Here is a snippet from a Jewish invstigator who once thought what you have said about Pius.imhereforyou wrote:
Of the pope who help the Nazis escape because (seemingly) they were doing the right thing by killing Jews?
"Growing up Jewish in Queens, I never dreamt I would be defending the man I once believed to be a Nazi sympathizer and an anti-Semite. But my work since 2002 with my wife, Meredith, and the Pave the Way Foundation has led me to this point.
We founded Pave the Way to identify and eliminate nontheological obstacles between religions. Thus, despite our early prejudices, we decided to investigate the papacy of Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli), one of today’s greatest sources of hurt between Jews and Catholics.
After years of research in documentary evidence and eyewitness testimony, what we found shocked us. We found nothing but praise and positive news articles concerning Pius’ actions from every Jewish, Israeli and political leader of the era who lived through the war. "
and
"It is unquestionable that Pius XII intervened to save countless Jews at a time most nations — even FDR’s America — refused to accept these refugees. He issued false baptismal papers and obtained visas for them to emigrate as “Non Aryan Catholic-Jews.� He smuggled Jews into the Americas and Asia. He ordered the lifting of cloister for men and women to enter monasteries, convents and churches to hide 7,000 Jews of Rome in a single day.
Among the 5,000 pages of documents that Pave the Way has located, there is abundant evidence that Pacelli was a lifelong friend of the Jews. Some highlights:
* In 1917, at the request of World Zionist Organization Director Nachum Sokolow, Nuncio Pacelli intervened with the Germans to protect the Jews of Palestine from extermination by the Ottoman Turks.
* In 1925, Pacelli arranged for Sokolow to meet with Pope Benedict XV to discuss a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
* In 1930, Pacelli supported the German bishops’ orders excommunicating anyone who joined “the Hitler Party.�
* In 1938, Pacelli intervened to defeat a Polish anti-koshering law.
* In 1939, A.W. Klieforth, the US consul general based in Cologne, Germany, wrote a confidential letter to Washington reporting on the “extremeness� of Pacelli’s hatred of National Socialism and of Hitler.
* In 1947, at the United Nations, he encouraged the 17 Catholic countries out of the 33 in favor to vote for the partitioning of Palestine to create the State of Israel.
* A 1948 deposition by Gen. Karl Wolff, the SS commandant for Italy, revealed the Nazis’ wartime plan to kidnap the pope, kill countless cardinals and seize the Vatican.
But the personal tales may be more compelling. Pacelli’s childhood best friend was Guido Mendes, an Orthodox Jewish boy. He tells how Pacel- li shared Shabbat meals with him. Mendes taught him Hebrew, and Pacelli helped him to emigrate to Palestine in 1938.
Pius XII’s detractors prefer to criticize rather than simply look at the evidence. Two years ago, Pope Benedict XVI ordered the opening of the Vatican’s archives up to 1939, containing much evidence of Eugenio Pacelli’s activities leading up to his papacy. According to the sign-in sheets, few of Pius’ critics have bothered to come to the archives to view the material.
Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish historian, theologian and Israeli ambassador, stated that the actions and policies of Pius XII saved as many as 860,000 Jews. "
I hope that helps paint a truer picture.