Satan and His Demons - Implausible

[Dimmesdale]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

[ttruscott]

If God can make angels with free will to live in heaven forever, He could have done the same with man. All angels are human-born. We don't know how many civilizations lived on this earth or perhaps another for millions of years.

Plenty of time for any human to become angel.

Since angel has no connotation of race or species except on the coolest pew, but means in fact messenger which is applied in the bible to holy spirits in heaven, humans and demonic spirits...may I suggest:

OR: GOD did make every person created in HIS image able to become holy and elect by their free will decision to do so (which would allow them to work as HIS messengers in heaven) OR able to become eternally evil by their free will decision to do so (which had them thrown into prison earth) OR able to choose to become elect and, free of the dangers of a possible hell, free to rebel against HIS call for the judgment on the Satanic, fallen, spirits who became Satan's demonic angels / messengers on earth, Matt.24:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.*

By rebelling against the call to judgement these elect became sinful and the judgement was postponed and the sinful elect were forced to live with the demonic sinful spirits until these sinful elect repent and accept sanctification.

* Those on the left are the people called 'goats', v33, who, by being sent to the place prepared for Satan and his angels, proves they are demonic messengers of Satan, sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39 to do their fathers bidding, John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by brianbbs67]

I also believe they have no more power than we give them. "they won't harm a hair on your head, but be not comforted by this..."

Flatly contradicted by the Book of Job. Remember, in that book, Satan is allowed by God to do whatever evil he wants to, to Job, all the while Job is faithful to God.

According to Hebrew legend, Soloman used demon slave labor to build some of the Temple. So they weren't imaginary then to him.

As we all know, if it's in legend, it must be true.

[liamconnor]

In my PCE opinion:

St. Paul says we will "one day judge the angels". This implies that man was destined to have authority over angels.

It does indeed, but not all, merely some. We will join the holy elect angels who chose to never sin in judging the fallen angels. This is what is meant by "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" ie, remove yourself from all ties of friendship or love with those condemned already, especially those we consider family.

It was the refusal of some elect (before anyone had yet gone to work for GOD and so became to be called angels) to listen to this command, which had to have been the first command GOD gave after the Satanic rebellion considering HIS absolute holiness and utter antipathy toward evil, that forced the postponement of the judgement which will only resume upon the repentance and redemption unto holiness, especially coming into accord with YHWH's plan for the judgement day to proceed, of the last sinful elect holdout.

And if angels preceded man in creation, well, I can understand only too well why some angels would be a bit vexed in this.

Yet if all spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time in a spirit word before the creation of the physical universe then the holy ones in HIS service will have no reason to be miffed...the verse is not talking about them. And Satan's rebellion was about GOD's claims to deity, not HIS supposed elevation of us over him, that old myth that assumes Satan knew YHWH as GOD yet rebelled any, knowing he was going to hell. NO ONE would rebel knowing for sure it would put them in hell...I find the idea ludicrous.

I see little biblical evidence for your claims, though I admit I am not entirely sure i understand them: but the claim that Satan was upset that God was God is hardly proved. I come from a strand of Christianity that concludes we simply don't know enough, and that "systems" like the one who have alluded to are based primarily on the imagination.

Our beliefs about satan come largely from Milton. My own counter was based purely on an intuitive grasp of psychology: to have freewill is to be liable to pride. Thus, arguments against the existence of devils because they "would have no reason to rebel" are blind to the realities of what it means to be a creature.

As to why exactly angels would fall, I believe all answers are hypothetical: the bible tells us nothing definitive.

One could read Genesis in a way that suggests Eve's creation rubbed satan the wrong way: All the creatures were presented to Adam, and yet none (including, presumably, the snake) was found adequate.

[ttruscott]

I see little biblical evidence for your claims,

Not so much 'claims' as new interpretations to be considered...

You see evidence in the phrase we will "one day judge the angels" that angels automatically refers to all angles whereas I contend there is room in that phrase for 'some angels'...you accept lots of phrasing that supports what you have been taught and I offer another one...neither has proof.

The orthodox theology that is forced by pre-decisions to accept 'all angels' rests upon two horrendous blasphemies...PCE puts these blasphemies to rest but then is forced by our pre-decisions to accept the scenario I presented in my previous post, which is neither contrary to logic nor the Bible.

Though I've challenged many people to find even one verse against the idea of our existence before the creation of the earth...of course I've not had one answer, even from the most vehement bibliophiles.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 8 by brianbbs67]

I also believe they have no more power than we give them. "they won't harm a hair on your head, but be not comforted by this..."

Flatly contradicted by the Book of Job. Remember, in that book, Satan is allowed by God to do whatever evil he wants to, to Job, all the while Job is faithful to God.

According to Hebrew legend, Soloman used demon slave labor to build some of the Temple. So they weren't imaginary then to him.

As we all know, if it's in legend, it must be true.

Allowed by God is the key phrase. Ha'Satan , the adversary, can do nothing to us without God's permission or ours.

Some consider the Talmud legend. Some don't.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 21 by ttruscott]


"By rebelling against the call to judgement these elect became sinful and the judgement was postponed and the sinful elect were forced to live with the demonic sinful spirits until these sinful elect repent and accept sanctification. "

Where did demonic sinful spirits come from?
What is call to judgment?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 21 by ttruscott]


"By rebelling against the call to judgement these elect became sinful and the judgement was postponed and the sinful elect were forced to live with the demonic sinful spirits until these sinful elect repent and accept sanctification. "

Where did demonic sinful spirits come from?
What is call to judgment?

The demonic spirits are those people created in GOD's image who chose by their freewill to put their faith in the idea that YHWH's claims to be Divine were a lie so they rejected HIS offer of salvation from any sin as the lies of a false god. Since they cannot escape the addicting influence of evil by themselves, by rejecting HIS help to save them from sin they made themselves to be eternally sinful.

They are described as the tares, the people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil as written about in Christ's explanation (no allegory, no metaphor, just plain fact) of the parable of the good seed and the tares, Matt 13:36-39, and as those condemned already for unbelief in contrast to believers who are sinners who are not condmened, Jn 3:18.

They came to earth from heaven with the sinful elect when Michael threw them down to the earth, specifically Sheol.

The call for judgement was the first command after Satan led his failed rebellion. Due to HIS holiness and HIS great antipathy against evil, as soon as evil was created by these people and with no end to their evil, HE called for HIS elect (those who did accept HIS claims to be our creator GOD and also accepted HIS offer of salvation for any and all sin as found in HIS Son, the Christ) to essentially "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" - that is, to break all ties of friendship or love with the demons and to quit listening to them.

Some of the elect dithered and rebelled against this call for the judgement of the demonic and so became sinful also which forced the postponement of the judgment as written in the parable of the good seed, Matt 13:28...‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The postponement will last until the last sinful elect repents and chooses holiness and accepts the absolute necessity for the banishment of all the eternal evil ones to the outer darkness.

[Zog Has-fallen]

If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from?

You're assuming that the sadistic nature of the fallen angels developed virtually instantaneously. I believe that the angelic revolt against God took time and progressed in stages and that the following scenario is a very reasonable beginning: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pp/pp1.html

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by 7homas]

One take may be to view the philosophy of The Bible in terms of demons and Satan by corrupt souls to Hell where the opposite-Archangels, the Demons and their super-principal Satan reigns! (Satan is the super-principle of both corrupt people and souls and the Demons in Hell.)

It may as well be that the first demons have been reported by schizophrenics in ancient times, saying that Demons made them do very immoral acts (as excuse as well).

Though, I also find that God is greater in terms of reality (by arguments) and fantastic World respects. That is, we witness "miracles" or a fantastic World and conclude God must be The Creator of the Universe and all in it.

Yes?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by 7homas]

One does well to understand that, as old as the universe is, it is still very much in its infancy stage, and so too, are we - on relation to that.

Stories of angels and demons are a natural enough projection from a species which is practically imprisoned on a planet, lost in space, having a genuine experience of a beginning and zero knowledge.

These stories seek to 'explain' our predicament in a manner which only ignorance can do and considering the spectrum of different behavior individuals are capable of, these naturally enough sort themselves into groups and these groups are in conflict with one another - sometimes extremely - if their positions are so diametric to each other.

Stories based upon dualism general have to have both protagonists and antagonists and victims and heroes and so angels and demons were instituted to 'explain' the varying differences in human behavior and associated conflicts.

These beings were further cemented in the human psyche through glimpses into an alternate reality intimately connected with our own, which confirmed both angels and demons were indeed real.

The problem with these glimpses were that those experiencing the alternate reality were unaware that they were witnessing - not something which preexisted the human being and the physical universe and was responsible for creating the physical universe and human beings, but in reality something which was created BY human beings through their own belief systems in which the alternate reality had properties that enabled those beliefs to be experienced as real.

In saying that, it is my understanding that it isn't really a 'problem' but was designed that way purposefully in order that we learn to eventually understand the power of our beliefs and how these can effective trap us if we continue to hold on to them, but how we also can be liberated from those beliefs, even before we each enter into the next stage of the ongoing experience - oft called 'life after death.'

As humans have evolved away from the primate superstitious beliefs they have also begun to see these alternate experiences in a different light - and come to understand that many of the stories inflicted upon the collective human psyche through religious/spiritual belief systems, have helped cause the experience of much grief and anxiety in the afterlife and the reports they now bring back to us re their experiences show a whole other side to the story evolving, as what is revealed allows for the individual to have graphic changes in beliefs and positions, for the positive.