What is written

[imhereforyou]

I'm not sure where this goes so please move it to the appropriate place if necessary.

Lately, while listening to cryptid podcasts, I've been hearing a lot of supernatural claims of these creatures acting when someone evokes the name of Jesus. Some say that a true researcher will look at all historical documents when researching such things. I wonder if that includes ALL historical documents/writing or just the bible but that's another topic altogether I suppose.
So let's just use the bible here as that's where most familiarity lies with most people here.

Could the bible be a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being like most people claim or could it be nothing more than the writings of what was witnessed and then attributed to something 'more' later?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Cont./... to #10 above ]

Who did the women see at the tomb? One person (Matthew and Mark) or two (Luke and John)?

WHO DID THE WOMEN SEE WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT THE TOMB

• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
  Mark: One young man* (16:5)
  Luke: Two men* (24:4)
  John: Two angels (20:12)

♦ ANSWER: That would depend on WHICH of the women in particular is being referred to and at what time as there was a lot of coming and going throughout the narrative. NOTE: The angels apparently appeared as "men" (there is no mention of wings in any of the accounts).

[Willum]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

WHO DID THE WOMEN SEE WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT THE TOMB?

Whatever the author of the story wanted the audience to see.

If it were a horror story - vampires.
If it were a love story, Romeo Capulet.
If it were a adventure, the nemesis of d'Artagnan.
If it were a children's story, the hero magically back from the dead.

So, WHO did the women see?

[JehovahsWitness]

What were the last words of Jesus? Three gospels give three different versions.

WHAT WERE JESUS LAST WORDS?

♦ ANSWER: We don't know. We know before he died the following were all heard. The exact order is impossible to deduce.

• Matthew : Jesus called out in a loud voice, then died (27:50)
  Mark Jesus let out a loud cry and died (15:37)
  Luke: called out "Father into your hand I entrust my spirit" after he said this he expired (23:46)
  John: Jesus said "It has been accomplished " and he died (19:30)

None of the authors state catatgorically " Jesus said XX and died immediately without uttering another word/sound ". We know that at some point after what they report having been heard, he died and we can reasonably assume what they reported was close to the moment Jesus expired but more cannot be deduced from the narratives.

The last audible sounds reported by both Matthew and Mark coming from Jesus was his crying out and then after this at some point dying. Whether they mean a cry of agony or actual words they don't say. Luke states that Jesus died after he cried to his Father (but doesn't say that nothing else was said nor does he say how long after this he died) and like Matthew John merely reports that two events happened (1) Jesus' uttering "it has been accomplished" and (2) his death. The lack of absolute negative statements and precise time sequencing means it is impossible to establish a contradiction.


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

Jesus last words? Matthew 27:46
"Why have you forsaken me?"

WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU READING?

[JehovahsWitness]

Did the women tell the disciples?

DID THE WOMEN TELL THE DISCIPLES ABOUT THE RESSURECTION?

♦ ANSWER: Yes they did.

• Mat 28:8 They ran to report this to his disciples
  Mark 16:8 They said nothing to anyone
  Luke 24:9 The reported to the Eleven
  John 20:18 Mary reported to the disciples

It is unreasonable to conclude that Mark was speaking in absolute terms and that the women never spoke another word as long as they lived. Obviously then when he said "nothing" he meant they did say things but there were things they did not say and when he said they did not speak to "anyone" it is not referring to everyone that was alive on earth (including their husbands and children) but they did speak to certain individuals. According to Marks account the women were told by the angels

• Go and tell his disciples and Peter

So rather than concluding that Mark is speaking in the absolute (that they never spoke again) we can understand that the women told nobody except those that they were instructed to speak to.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

If they did, it is recorded no where other than that document that said they did.

Just like I might write:

And Wyle E Coyote hast the anvil dropped upon him, and this witness was born by hundreds of thousand.
Into a a cave he was mooshed, through the very Earth itself!
But lo! After three dozen seconds the Road Runner verily did visit the cave and find the Coyote with his feet and body still affected as though he were an accordion, and miracles of miracles, alive and making those sounds of the accordion whilst he walketh!
Alive after death! The Coyote hastheth conquered death.

You get the idea.

A book that covers for itself makes for great entertainment.

[Danmark]

[Cont./... to #10 above ]

Who did the women see at the tomb? One person (Matthew and Mark) or two (Luke and John)?

WHO DID THE WOMEN SEE WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT THE TOMB

• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
  Mark: One young man* (16:5)
  Luke: Two men* (24:4)
  John: Two angels (20:12)

♦ ANSWER: That would depend on WHICH of the women in particular is being referred to and at what time as there was a lot of coming and going throughout the narrative. NOTE: The angels apparently appeared as "men" (there is no mention of wings in any of the accounts).

This analysis is typical of failed attempts to turn clear contradictions into non contradictions, because it assumes without evidence:
1. angels are mistaken for men
2. There was 'a lot of coming and going'
3. And most importantly, the analysis concedes the Gospel writers make mistakes and cannot write clearly, nor report consistently.

The Gospels are held up as the inspired word of God and are to be taken as "Gospel," yet the apologia concedes ambiguity and error; just of another kind. Inherent in the explanation is that the 'Word of God' is at best vague when it contradictions are present, yet in all other passages we are supposed to accept it as absolute truth.

[JehovahsWitness]

This analysis [...] assumes without evidence:
1. angels are mistaken for men

DID THE WOMEN SEE ANGELS OR MEN?

♦ ANSWER: They saw angels that looked like men.


By far the majority of manifestations of angels depicted in scripture present themselves as men with no mention of wings, for example we have the case of Lot, visited by what are initially described as "men" and then in the same passage as "angels" (see Gen 19: 12, 15). This explains why often the participants did not understand they were indeed interacting with angels until there is some kind of manifestation of supernatural power or divine revelation.

JUDGES 6:21,22
Then [...] Jehovah’s angel then vanished from his sight. Gideon now realized that it was Jehovah’s angel.

JUDGES 13: 20, 21
Jehovah’s angel ascended in the flame from the altar while Manoah and his wife were looking on. At once they fell with their faces to the ground. Jehovah’s angel did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. Then Manoah realized that he was Jehovah’s angel.

Indeed the book of Hebrews states that "some unknowingly entertained angels" possibly a reference to Abraham's visit by what is described as "three men" but turned out to be individuals of supernatural origin.

CONCLUSION: While the bible does speak of individuals having dreams and visions of angels with wings and flying, by far the majority of occurances angels are not spoken of having wings and are presented having the appearance of men. Since the gospel speaks of these individuals as being of divine origin with supernatual powers, a reasonable conclusion would that the women spoke to "angels" that had taken on the appearance as "men"; no contradiction.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

DID THE WOMEN SEE ANGELS OR MEN?

♦ ANSWER: They saw angels that looked like men.

Or, had they simply been written into a story to say they saw angels that looked like men?
Or, were they really men acting a part?
Or, were they just really men?

We don't see many angels that look like men these days - or do we, and we just don't know it because they are playing "secret agent angel?"

It is called the "Greatest Story Ever Told," right?

[JehovahsWitness]

Could Jesus' followers touch him? John says no; the other gospels say yes.

• Matthew 28:9 [the women] took hold of his feet
  Mark - makes no comment on the matter
  Luke - makes no comment on the matter
  John 20:17: Jesus said unto her, Touch me not - King James 2000 Bible

COULD MARY TOUCH JESUS?

• Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers states regarding the Greek word, translated in many bibles as "touch" (haptomai) that it can mean : to “cling to, to “fasten on, to "grasp" an object. The tense is present, and the prohibition is, therefore, not of an individual act, but of a continuance of the act, of the habit, Do not continue clinging to Me.

ANSWER: Yes, they could touch Jesus and all the gospel accounts that deal with this matter harmonize in that they present Jesus in a physical body. John's gospel uses a Greek word (and tense) that indicates Jesus was not prohibiting Mary from touching him (since she had evidently from the tense used, already taken a hold of him) but that Jesus was telling her to stop clinging to him (ie to let him go).

Various Translations
http://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm

New International Version
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me

Christian Standard Bible
"Don't cling to me,"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus told her, "Don't hold on to me.

New American Standard 1977
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me

Weymouth New Testament
"Do not cling to me," said Jesus,

World English Bible
Jesus said to her, "Don't hold me

JESUS RESURRECTION

Was Jesus resurrected as a human being?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p909944

Was Jesus resurrected in a spiritual or physical body?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p753616

If Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, how could he show Thomas the sounds on his body?
viewtopic.php?p=1063505#p1063505

Did Jesus post resurrection body carry the wounds inflicted on it during his execution ?
viewtopic.php?p=967900#p967900

Why did Jesus' disciples not recognise him after his resurrection?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 49#p967749

Why could God not simply give Jesus back his old body?
viewtopic.php?p=1035994#p1035994

If Jesus was not raised in the same body, why was the tomb empty?
viewtopic.php?p=1036029#p1036029

Was Mary able to touch the risen Christ?
viewtopic.php?p=908706#p908706

To read more please go to other posts related to...

THE RESURRECTION , JESUS RESURRECTION and ... RESSURECTION CHRONOLOGY