Conservation of energy

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Inigo Montoya
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Post #81

Post by Inigo Montoya »

[Replying to post 80 by For_The_Kingdom]

Address your points?

Your points are as follows:

"Abiogenesis doesn't make sense, which somehow negates evolutionary theory, and therefore naturalism is somehow false and the version of God I happen to believe in somehow wins by default, because that's how I understand science and reason to work."


Your points have been addressed aplenty, and by plenty. Perhaps you could answer my own direct and unambiguous question.

For_The_Kingdom
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Post #82

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Inigo Montoya wrote: Address your points?

Your points are as follows:

"Abiogenesis doesn't make sense, which somehow negates evolutionary theory
Inaccurate. Abiogenesis could be false. If God doesn't exist, then if abiogenesis is false, so is evolution.
Inigo Montoya wrote: , and therefore naturalism is somehow false and the version of God I happen to believe in somehow wins by default, because that's how I understand science and reason to work."
More inaccuracies of my position.
Inigo Montoya wrote: Your points have been addressed aplenty, and by plenty.
It ain't about about quantity of the responses, it is the quality of the responses.
Inigo Montoya wrote: Perhaps you could answer my own direct and unambiguous question.
What question?

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DrNoGods
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Post #83

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 82 by For_The_Kingdom]
If God doesn't exist, then if abiogenesis is false, so is evolution.
1) God most likely does not exist because there is no evidence for he/she/it.

2) Abiogenesis may or may not be the mechanism describing the origin of life on this planet. It is an open research question.

3) The status of evolution being true or false has absolutely zero dependence on 1 or 2. It cares not about HOW life arose ... only that it did.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown..
Carl Sagan

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

For_The_Kingdom
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Post #84

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

DrNoGods wrote:
1) God most likely does not exist because there is no evidence for he/she/it.
Disagree.
DrNoGods wrote: 2) Abiogenesis may or may not be the mechanism describing the origin of life on this planet. It is an open research question.

3) The status of evolution being true or false has absolutely zero dependence on 1 or 2. It cares not about HOW life arose ... only that it did.
Ok, so lets take this slowly...lets just say, for arguments sake, that God does not exist, then where does that leave #2..as true, or false?

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Post #85

Post by otseng »

For_The_Kingdom wrote: Address my points, if not..continue to be lost.
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DrNoGods
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Post #86

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 84 by For_The_Kingdom]
Ok, so lets take this slowly...lets just say, for arguments sake, that God does not exist, then where does that leave #2..as true, or false?
It leaves #2 as still an open question because neither abiogenesis, nor any of the other proposed mechanisms for the origin of life (eg. panspermia), have been confirmed, or shown to be false. So they are all on the table until some progress is made towards one or another of the various proposed mechanisms, or a new one is identified.

But the connection to evolution is still nonexistent. If abiogenesis is true, or false, or if some other mechanism is responsible for the origin of life, or if a god did indeed do it, that would explain the origin of life on this planet but would not say anything about whether evolution is true or false. Evolution requires life forms to work with, but has no connection to HOW that life came to be ... any of the possible mechanisms, including a god, are perfectly consistent with evolution.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown..
Carl Sagan

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

For_The_Kingdom
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Post #87

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

DrNoGods wrote: It leaves #2 as still an open question because neither abiogenesis, nor any of the other proposed mechanisms for the origin of life (eg. panspermia), have been confirmed, or shown to be false. So they are all on the table until some progress is made towards one or another of the various proposed mechanisms, or a new one is identified.
Now just hold it right there. You just said that abiogenesis is a theory that have yet to be confirmed, or falsified, right? So, that leaves open the possibility that it could in fact be false, right? So, if it could be false, how can evolution still remain true without God?

Now, at that point, God is the only game left in town...and if evolution is a belief you'd like to keep, then you have to simply say that God used evolution to do his thang.

At that point, I will still disagree with you there...but hey, welcome to theism!! J/K.

Seriously, at that point, you will simply have to be open minded about supernaturalism..as you have no other logical choice.
DrNoGods wrote: But the connection to evolution is still nonexistent. If abiogenesis is true, or false, or if some other mechanism is responsible for the origin of life, or if a god did indeed do it, that would explain the origin of life on this planet but would not say anything about whether evolution is true or false.
As long as God is given his due consideration, no problems there.
DrNoGods wrote: Evolution requires life forms to work with, but has no connection to HOW that life came to be ... any of the possible mechanisms, including a god, are perfectly consistent with evolution.
SMH. Okey dokey.

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Post #88

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 82 by For_The_Kingdom]

If God doesn't exist, then if abiogenesis is false, so is evolution.
If God doesn't exist what would be an alternative to abiogenesis?

:study:

For_The_Kingdom
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Post #89

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 82 by For_The_Kingdom]

If God doesn't exist, then if abiogenesis is false, so is evolution.
If God doesn't exist what would be an alternative to abiogenesis?

:study:
There isn't any alternative, abiogenesis would have to be true if God doesn't exist; that's the point.

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Post #90

Post by Bust Nak »

For_The_Kingdom wrote: Abiogenesis could be false. If God doesn't exist, then if abiogenesis is false, so is evolution.
Why would you think that? your conclusion does not follow.
Now just hold it right there. You just said that abiogenesis is a theory that have yet to be confirmed, or falsified, right? So, that leaves open the possibility that it could in fact be false, right? So, if it could be false, how can evolution still remain true without God?
The same way evolution is true now, with reproduction, variation, inheritance and selection, changing (perhaps more importantly, splitting) groups of organisms over time; resulting in a "tree of life" with each leaf coming from a common root. It would help if you could explain why you'd think evolution can't be true if God does not exist and abiogenesis is false.
There isn't any alternative, abiogenesis would have to be true if God doesn't exist; that's the point.
That depends on what exactly is encompassed by the term "abiogenesis," panspermia can be considered an alternative.

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