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rikuoamero
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:25 am  How does Jesus's "sacrifice" make any kind of sens Reply with quote

This is for the theists, of course.

Just how does it make sense? What is the debt? Why is there a debt, and how is it to be repaid?

According to standard Christian theology, there was a tree with some fruit that was forbidden to the first humans. The fruit was eaten anyway, and some punishments were handed out.
Surely that should have been the end of it right? But no, according to Christians, someone just HAD to die. Which is strange, considering that nothing of what Adam and Eve did had anything to do with death; the loss of their supposed immortality was not done by them directly, but as a part of the punishment handed out by their god.
Even so...even if we ignore that...how does Jesus dying 'solve' that, or mitigate that?

Would it have worked if Jesus had lain down in a bathtub and slit his wrists? Or hung himself, entirely of his own volition?
I'm guessing no...I'm guessing that what just HAD to be done was for some corrupt priests (were they corrupt? Apparently they were only obeying their god's laws!) called for his execution and had him nailed to a piece of wood, with Jesus not resisting in any way.
So what does that accomplish? What does that show? From what I can see, it only shows that (some) people can kill, are ready and willing to do so, in the name of their god even if (apparently) this "isn't" what God wants (but it is!)

Now, I'm going to guess I'm going to get answers that ignore most, if not all, of what I said. I will be told that the only acceptable sacrifice was Jesus, since he's a sinless, perfect human. Notice that I didn't comment on that part.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:34 pm
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OnceConvinced wrote:
Do you think we'd all be happy ...that Adolf [Hitler] is going to get off scot free?



QUESTION Does the ransom mean that none of Adam's desendents will be held accountable for their actions?

    ANSWER: No, it means that there is a provision available (the ransom) for repentnat humans that prove they are willing to be obedient to Jehovah God and humbly accept to submit to His son Jesus Christ. Those judged to be incorribily wicked will have no opportunity for eternal life.


QUESTION So does that mean that wicked people that don't repent may die peacefully in their beds without further retribution?

    ANSWER Yes, that is a distinct possibility. God is not vindictive and sees fit not to torture the wicked indefinitely for their deeds. If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives. Whether God deems to give them the opportunity to benefit from the ransom is a judgement that rest in His capable hands.

    There is a saying that "The best revenge is living well", those that have suffered at the hands of the wicked, and accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus will have the prospect of eternal life, for the majority on this our planet earth free from suffering and pain; even the memory of their past suffering will cease to cause any emotional pain. For many this will be by means of a resurrection where they will return to healthy life on this planet and finally "live well" while the wicked will be dead forgotten forever. That is how God judges to administer His justice.


JW


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:56 pm
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benchwarmer wrote:
I never saw Adam kill anyone in the Bible, so none of this still makes any sense.



WHO DID ADAM KILL?

    Indirectly Adam killed every human that was ever born on this planet. As with any father, Adam's decisions would effect his children. Created a perfect man Adam, if he had proven faithful, would have lived forever and been able to father perfect offspring. None of his children would have gotten sick, grown old or died. There would be no disease, no sickness, no cancer... no hospitals, no need for doctors, no graveyards, no grief, no suffering. In his "loins" he carried the entire human family and it was his responsibility to do right by them. He should have made decisions that protected them and ensured the best future for them. He did exactly the opposite.

    Like a manufacturer that deliberately allows a poisonous substance to be introduced to his product, Adam thought only of himself. So although he didn't take a knife to his children he was responsible for their deaths nonetheless, killing them through malicious negligence. By his one act of rebellion he guaranteed a slow death (for we are all of us dying from the moment we are born) for all his children and proved to be the worst father imaginable.



JW



RELATED POSTS

Adam's sin had what effect on his children?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=909860#909860

Is God punishing us for Adam's sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=381280#381280


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:16 pm
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benchwarmer wrote:
You seem to be suggesting that the sacrificing of one life (Jesus) can somehow cover all the other lives lost. That doesn't add up.


HOW CAN THE DEATH OF ONE MAN COVER FOR THE SINS OF SO MANY?

ANSWER Because a single act by one individual can have a dramatic effect on numerous others. For example, a skilled pilot might make a single wise decision and avoid an accident that would effect hundreds of people. In short, the number that benefit can be disproportionate to the benefactor. Winston Churchill once said "Never was so much owed by so many to so few", in the case of the ransom, the "so few" becomes "one".

For further explanation please consult video below (4"mins)

YouTube


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:16 pm
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[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

I suppose to those at the time, the story of an innocent life cute short due to the problems/sins of others made the most sense for a story (some historians point out this story has happened before the story of Jesus).
As far as debt goes, I'm not convinced there's a debt we, today, need to pay. Because of what some long dead people did I must repay their debt? That makes less sense to me than the initial story of Jesus's sacrifice itself.
It seems to say that we're responsible for our own actions yet, at the same time, we're also responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve, but not our parents?!?
Come on now.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:13 pm
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

benchwarmer wrote:
Adam's 'deliberate sin' should have been paid for by Adam.


QUESTION: Did Jesus die for Adam's sin?

ANSWER No, Jesus died to free Adam's children from the consequences of inherited sin. Adam died for Adam's sin.

How does one inherit sin? Would this not be a mechanism that God has put in place? Why would God transfer sin from parents to children? If Adam's sin was paid for by Adam's death, why the multiplication to all children? Does God require interest as well?

Things are still not adding up. You claim a life is required to pay for a life. Adam did not kill anyone, he simply disobeyed some rules according to the story. Punishing the children of Adam with a death sentence that needs to be paid for is on God, not the children.

Clearly this God character in the story has a rather messed up sense of justice, requiring all children to carry the debt of sin from a parent who has already paid the ultimate price - death.

JehovahsWitness wrote:

benchwarmer wrote:
That's not even getting into the glaring issue that Jesus didn't give up his life, he resurrected remember? No life lost.


Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=875280#875280


That thread did not answer the question. How exactly did Jesus pay anything to anyone? He resurrected and wandered around alive again before flying off into the sky. Seems like he actually was the one paid, not the payee. Jesus did not give up his life of being human, he wandered around and talked to people remember? He also got the added bonus of living forever after apparently learning how to fly.

Normally a payment, especially in terms of justice, requires a loss of something that cannot be regained. Like time in prison, monetary fines, etc. You cannot recover lost time and you will never have the money you paid. You might have time left or receive different money, but what you gave is lost.

At best, Jesus paid by being tortured and temporarily dead for a couple days. I would say the torture was the real price paid, not his temporary death. Sure, he lost a couple days, but now apparently lives for eternity so no real loss of time has occurred. Certainly not the kind of time that would be paying for billions of peoples 'sin'.

Still doesn't add up or make any sense.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:30 am
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benchwarmer wrote:
Why would God transfer sin from parents to children?


QUESTION: Does God transfer sin from parents to Children?

    ANSWER No. Strictly speaking, "sin" refers to an individual's actions that fail to meet God's perfect standards. So for example if a man steals a car that is a sin. There is no way for that sin (stealing the car) to be "transfered" to his son, the man stole his son did not steal. He son cannot be said to have performed the lawless action of his Father so there is no mechanism to "transfer the sin"


WHAT THEN DOES IT MEAN TO "INHERIT" OR "PASS ON" SIN

    We often speak about "inherited" sin but really what is being referred to is an inherited sinful condition. This refers to children being born in a "sinful" or less than perfect condition that means they have a natural leaning to commit their own sinful acts. Being born imperfect (sinful/sinners) all humans would eventually in word or deed commit sins. No human child of Adam would lead a life free of sinful actions and therefore no child of Adam could escape being punished for their own sins. Adam passed on that "genetic illness" as it were, that imperfect condition to his unborn children.


RELATED POST Who did Adam "kill"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=909905#909905


benchwarmer wrote:
... children to carry the debt of sin from a parent


QUESTION: Are Adam's children carrying HIS debt ?

    ANSWER: Adam's children they are suffering from the consequences of Adam's sin. Adam's sin, that was "paid for" by Adam (the death penalty was impossed and that matter was closed). Unfortunately Adam's actions had consequences that would reach far beyond himself. Newton once said, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Adam paid for his own action but the chain events caused by Adam's actions (the consequences) could not be repaired by his death alone.


RELATED POSTS

Is God punishing us for Adam's sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=381280#38128


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:35 am
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benchwarmer wrote:
Adam did not kill anyone

Who did Adam "kill"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=909905#909905



Quote:

benchwarmer wrote:
Punishing the children of Adam...

Is God punishing us for Adam's sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=381280#381280

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:24 am
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benchwarmer wrote:


JehovahsWitness wrote:

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=875280#875280


Jesus did not give up his life of being human, he wandered around and talked to people remember?



WAS JESUS RESURRECTED A HUMAN?

ANSWER No, Jesus was not resurrected as a human, he was resurrected as a SPIRIT with the ability to "materialize" (take on what appears to be human form) in order to be temporarily visible to humans. Spirits are intelligent life forms with bodies that cannot normally be seen by humans. God himself is a spirit as are the angels that live with God in heaven (see John 4:24). Jesus died as a human but was resurrected as a mighty spirit creature.

Quote:
1 CORINTHIANS 15;44
When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body.


    To prove he was no longer dead, evidently Jesus appeared in various material bodies (evidently not the same each time and not identical to the body he died in, since on most occassions his friends did not initally recognize him). "Materialized spirits" it seems can instantly appear and disappear and as Jesus did post resurrection even appearing in a room where access was locked to outsiders.

    In any case, Jesus resurrection was not the first time spirits have "materialized" in order to be visible to humans. The angel Gabriel is not a human, he is a spirit angel that lives in heaven with God, however, the virgin Mary saw Gabriel, materialized, appearing in the form of "a man". The same is the case for several other cases reported in the bible including the angels that announced Jesus resurrection.


CONCLUSION Jesus can never again exist as a human he gave human life up for mankind, but that does not mean the original transaction is invalidated because his Father chose to reward him with something far superior to human life, namely immortal heavenly life as a spirit in a glorified spirit body.


JW



RELATED POSTS

When Jesus was resurrected, did the women initially see angels or men?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=908457#908457

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:04 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives.

If that was the case then it goes back to why did Jesus have to die?! This bit here contradicts your earlier answer as to Jesus's blood was the only way to annul the inherited sin.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:11 am
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Bust Nak wrote:

JehovahsWitness wrote:

If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives.

If that was the case then it goes back to why did Jesus have to die?! This bit here contradicts your earlier answer as to Jesus's blood was the only way to annul the inherited sin.


Jesus died to eradicate the effects of "inherited" Adamic sin so that should they choose to, it would be possible for a human descendant of Adam to live obtain everlasting life.

    All human descendants of Adam have inherited from him a weakness to commit sin, thus all humans will eventually without exception, sin and the penalty for sin is death. When a human dies they have paid the penalty for the sins they committed during their lives. They have not been freed from their inherited Adamic condition ("inherited sin"). To illustrate, suppose a man is an alcoholic. In a drunken state he breaks someone's window. When he is forced to pay for the window, does that mean he is no longer an alcoholic? All humans are born, not "alcoholics" but "sinners", weak with a leaning towards sin. We won't all break windows but we will all eventually commit some sinful act.


ADAMIC "SIN" v MURDER

    If Adamic/Inherited sin is the inherited condition, the weakness, the tendency to commit sin. Only sinless humans have the right to life, life was given on this condition murdering a man is a sinful action. When a person dies he has been punished (with the death penalty) for all his sinful actions (great or small). Let's say a murderer dies, if he were to be resurrected he would no longer be held accountable for any murders he committed during his life, however he would STILL be imperfect and so it would still be inevitable that he again sins (although not necessarily murder). There is therefore no way for a human descendant of Adam to live a sinless life and escape death.


QUESTION So what Adam did meant that everyone born from him would sin and everyone that sins would die?
    Yes that's about it. All humanity became "slaves" to sin, "hostages" to a situation they were not ultimately responsible for because of the reckless selfish action of Adam


Jesus came to "free" mankind from this hopeless bondage to sin and death, so the children of Adam could eventually live forever in a sinless state.




RELATED POST

Who did Adam "kill"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=909905#909905

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