Does belief matter at all?

[Willum]

If you believe in Heaven.
If you believe in redemption.
If you believe in monotheism, or a monotheism that is a trinity.
If you believe they put a man on the moon.

Why would you think it has any effect on reality?
Why would you think it has any effect on the afterlife or God?
Realtiy, whatever it is, IS what it is, right?

If termites prayed to you would it make a difference?

Reality will be unchanged by your beliefs, right?
God is perfect and unchanged by your beliefs right?

So how does belief change God or what happens ever, or after you die?

If one termite believes you are his savior, and one believes I am it's saviour, does this change anything at all?

[ttruscott]

YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where EVERY SINGLE ONE of his creation choose by their free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what they want.

Yet YHWH did not go with the optimal scenario. There are only two reasons for this - either he couldn't do it, or he lacked the will to do it (or both.) In other words, the classic problem of evil.

You've heard this all before, yet you never move beyond the "free-will!" defense as if it was enough to get you out of trouble.

If you can't see that the phrase "YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where ..." totally invalidates every criteria of free will so that what the person chooses is not their own choice but is merely an extension of YHWH's choice, then I am really uncertain how to proceed.

I tend to agree that if HE could do it that way then absent another good reason HIS decision may be characterized as evil but you have given the answer yourself: "he couldn't do it" --because it violates free will.

IF we look at what I contend HE did do then it matches what you claim HE should have done perfectly except you want to add the little bit of slight of hand that somehow then we only want HIS will due to his intent in how HE created us.

Sorry, you can't have both: either HE creates us to fulfill HIS intent OR HE creates us free to choose our own intent, free of HIS intent. Your charge of contradiction seems to be based upon a bias that forces a false logic...

[Bust Nak]

If you can't see that the phrase "YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where ..." totally invalidates every criteria of free will so that what the person chooses is not their own choice but is merely an extension of YHWH's choice, then I am really uncertain how to proceed.

Let me give you a few suggestions: Give up and never bring free will up again when you see me talk about the problem of evil; alternatively reject the notion of an omni-max god and adjust your theology; and my preferred option, abandon Christianity as trivially false due to this contradiction.

Why would you think there is any invalidation of free will there what so ever? You described free will in your own words, and I stuck to your description word by word: why would us choose by our free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what we want, be a violation of free will?

I tend to agree that if HE could do it that way then absent another good reason HIS decision may be characterized as evil but you have given the answer yourself: "he couldn't do it" --because it violates free will.

What are you saying here? An omnipotent being can do it without violating free will, therefore if God can't do it without violating free will, then he is not omnipotent. Is that what you are implying, God is not omnipotent?

IF we look at what I contend HE did do then it matches what you claim HE should have done perfectly except you want to add the little bit of slight of hand that somehow then we only want HIS will due to his intent in how HE created us.

There is no slight of hand, you added that bit, not I. I clearly stated choose by free will as what we want, nothing what so ever about God's intent.

Sorry, you can't have both: either HE creates us to fulfill HIS intent OR HE creates us free to choose our own intent, free of HIS intent. Your charge of contradiction seems to be based upon a bias that forces a false logic...

I don't need to have both, I will go with the latter option: HE creates us free to choose our own intent, free of HIS intent, and STILL EVERY SINGLE ONE of us would choose by our free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what we want. This is the optimal scenario, the action scenario is less than optimal, hence the problem of evil.

[ttruscott]

why would us choose by our free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what we want, be a violation of free will?

Because you are suggesting we would only want that because HE made us that way...did your forget that?

Forcing us to choose only what HE wants and calling it a free will because we 'think, feel,' we really really want it is sophistry since it does not make the choice free because we might only want it because HE made us want it. IF our history with YHWH is accepted then it is obvious that some indeed will be wanting it only because HE wants them to want it, not because they want it from themselves because they have proven they don't.

[Bust Nak]

Because you are suggesting we would only want that because HE made us that way...did your forget that?

Forcing us to....

What's this about forcing? I distinctly remember refraining from that suggestion. My suggestion was we would want that because we really wanted it ourselves.

I invite you to give me your best shot at the most comprehensive, bullet proof description of what free will decision of heavenly marriage involves, and I'll make sure to use your exact wording, and rephrase my rendition of the problem of evil appropriately.

[ttruscott]

Because you are suggesting we would only want that because HE made us that way...did your forget that?

Forcing us to....

What's this about forcing? I distinctly remember refraining from that suggestion. My suggestion was we would want that because we really wanted it ourselves.

I invite you to give me your best shot at the most comprehensive, bullet proof description of what free will decision of heavenly marriage involves, and I'll make sure to use your exact wording, and rephrase my rendition of the problem of evil appropriately.

You are using the bait and switch logical falacy. You claim:

YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where EVERY SINGLE ONE of his creation choose by their free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what they want. Yet YHWH did not go with the optimal scenario.

YHWH did not go with the optimal scenario. - suggests that HE was remiss not to give everyone a free will that ended with what HE wanted, not themselves. Calling that a free will and a reflection of what I claim is a bait and switch logical fallacy.

I already suggest that this [YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where EVERY SINGLE ONE of his creation choose by their free will] is what HE did - we all had an equal ability and opportunity to choose to marry HIM in heaven, which was HIS plan. IF we had done that, the heavenly state would have started in that instant and no world of suffering and death would have ensued. That some did not so choose is not a remission on HIS part.

HOW could HE get around Satan wanting so much to avoid this marriage he was willing to believe that GOD was lying about all these things knowing he was condemned if YHWH ever proved HIS divinity.

Hidden within your words that you claim reflect what I said is the meaning that YHWH should have made Satan wanting to marry HIM as if he was not made to want that but was wanting it from his own free will.

Your words imply that the outcome of our choice is not ourselves but GOD's creation of the scenario, ie FORCING OUR DECISION THOUGH YOU NEVER COME OUT AND SAY IT AND THEN DENY YOU MEANT THAT but that is the clear implication - even though you claim they don't... Your promise to use my words is then suspect because you like to change the goal posts.

How would Satan supposedly get this sudden desire to marry HIM? From the intent of YHWH's desire in his creation, since it was not Satan's intent.

[ttruscott]

I tend to agree that if HE could do it that way then absent another good reason HIS decision may be characterized as evil but you have given the answer yourself: "he couldn't do it" --because it violates free will.

What are you saying here? An omnipotent being can do it without violating free will, therefore if God can't do it without violating free will, then he is not omnipotent. Is that what you are implying, God is not omnipotent?

We just had this discussion! GOD cannot do that which is against HIS character, nor what is not the best for us nor logical impossibilities...

and, since omnipotence refers to the use of power, there is no power available that HE can use to do these things. How much power does it take to go against HIS character, to not do HIS best for us or to make a logical impossibility possible??

[Bust Nak]

You are using the bait and switch logical falacy. You claim:

YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where EVERY SINGLE ONE of his creation choose by their free will (a free will that includes ability to reject the proposal) to be a part of the marriage because that is what they want. Yet YHWH did not go with the optimal scenario.

YHWH did not go with the optimal scenario. - suggests that HE was remiss not to give everyone a free will that ended with what HE wanted, not themselves.

Nop, you are the one suggesting that. Not I. No where have I suggested or implied anything along that line. The actual suggestion was that HE could have gave everyone a free will that ended with what they themselves wanted which happens to match with what HE wanted. Is there anything wrong with calling a will that ended with what they themselves wanted, free will?

I already suggest that this [YHWH could have created the perfect scenario where EVERY SINGLE ONE of his creation choose by their free will] is what HE did..,

It's clearly not perfect since there are sinners.

IF we had done that, the heavenly state would have started in that instant and no world of suffering and death would have ensued. That some did not so choose is not a remission on HIS part.

Doesn't really matter whose remission it is, the point is, this isn't perfect despite your contention.

HOW could HE get around Satan wanting so much to avoid this marriage he was willing to believe that GOD was lying about all these things knowing he was condemned if YHWH ever proved HIS divinity.

The options are endless, HE is said to be omnipotent. Proving for a fact that God wasn't lying is a trival option.

Hidden within your words that you claim reflect what I said is the meaning that YHWH should have made Satan wanting to marry HIM as if he was not made to want that but was wanting it from his own free will.

What's wrong with just making Satan wanting to marry HIM because Satan was wanting it from his own free will?

Your words imply that the outcome of our choice is not ourselves but GOD's creation of the scenario...

Again, I have made no such implicaiton. I have explicitly stated that the outcome of our choice IS ourselves.

How would Satan supposedly get this sudden desire to marry HIM?

By Satan's very own intent to marry HIM obviously.

We just had this discussion! GOD cannot do that which is against HIS character, nor what is not the best for us nor logical impossibilities...

and, since omnipotence refers to the use of power, there is no power available that HE can use to do these things.

But I didn't suggest God do anything that is against HIS character or something that is not in our best interest, least of all something that is impossible.

How much power does it take to go against HIS character, to not do HIS best for us or to make a logical impossibility possible??

Don't know and don't care.

[ttruscott]

What's wrong with just making Satan wanting to marry HIM because Satan was wanting it from his own free will?

My last reply to you on this: I've heard you, I've answered. I do not dance on the head of a pin...take the last word if you want.

It is wrong because it is a logical impossibility; IF GOD made Satan to want heaven then Satan is not choosing heaven by his free will, and it never can be a free will decision no matter how much you contest that.

Your argument is on the order of: What is wrong with GOD making one plus one equal to 345? and is full of cognitive dissonance. GOD makes him choose heaven by his free will? Do you not understand these are mutually exclusive terms, make and choose freely? Do you not recognize the double-think in this suggestion, claiming opposites are both true at the same time?

[Bust Nak]

It is wrong because it is a logical impossibility; IF GOD made Satan to want heaven then Satan is not choosing heaven by his free will, and it never can be a free will decision no matter how much you contest that.

You say that but that's exactly what God has done with all the elected. God made a bunch of people who want heaven by their won free will. You can't have have it both ways. Either the "sinless elected" are programmed, or they are not. If they are not programmed, then a repeat of that process would also not be a case of programming, whatever that process involves.

Your argument is on the order of: What is wrong with GOD making one plus one equal to 345?

Incorrect. 1+1=345 is logically impossible. Not so with creating people who choose to marry God by their own free will.

GOD makes him choose heaven by his free will? Do you not understand these are mutually exclusive terms, make and choose freely? Do you not recognize the double-think in this suggestion, claiming opposites are both true at the same time?

If they were opposite then "sinless elected" would be impossible. Every single person made would be in hell. If you sticking point is the word make, then you are arguing semantics, by all means swap the word make with create.

I asked you in another thread: Are you suggesting that "interferences that do not denies our true free will" is a logical impossibility / incoherient concept? If so that's something that can actually advance the debate."

This latest post of your is the closest ever you've come to affirming that. Was it what you have been trying to say all along? Things are finally getting interesting again and you are bailing on me. Typical.

I see JehovahsWitness liked the post, feel free to jump in and pick up where ttrucott left off.

[Provoker]

If you believe in Heaven.
If you believe in redemption.
If you believe in monotheism, or a monotheism that is a trinity.
If you believe they put a man on the moon.

Why would you think it has any effect on reality?
Why would you think it has any effect on the afterlife or God?
Realtiy, whatever it is, IS what it is, right?

If termites prayed to you would it make a difference?

Reality will be unchanged by your beliefs, right?
God is perfect and unchanged by your beliefs right?

So how does belief change God or what happens ever, or after you die?

If one termite believes you are his savior, and one believes I am it's saviour, does this change anything at all?

Hi Willum:
Fortunately, it does not matter what anyone believes when it comes to receiving the blessing of God's everlasting gospel. Everyone on the earth will be blessed by God's gospel, which is completely unconditional. God did not request that anyone must believe His gospel, because His gospel was simply a revelation of the good news ending He saw from the beginning. IOW, everyone on the earth will be blessed by the fulfillment of God's gospel. God is not a respecter of persons.
Those who do believe God's gospel are justified in their belief, and they may very well be inclined to work toward the fulfillment of God's gospel, but everyone on the earth will receive the gospel blessing, just as God promised.
What do you think Willum?