So we have all heard the arguments on why God won't show himself and instantly convert the entire world to beneficence.
But what is preventing the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc., from revealing himself with opposite intent?
He is not proscribed from doing so by any reason is he? and if he existed, he certainly, through the power of positive proof, lies, and any misconstrue, he would certainly be able to get people to believe anything in lines with his own goals...
why doesn't he?
Let's assume for purposes of the OP, that this creature, Satan, and his legion of fallen angels, exist.
Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
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FarWanderer
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #21[Replying to post 20 by Willum]
If he can "reveal" himself to us without our knowledge, then we have no basis to believe he hasn't.
He could well be Mohammed, Richard Dawkins, or the Dalai Lama. Or even all of them.
If he can "reveal" himself to us without our knowledge, then we have no basis to believe he hasn't.
He could well be Mohammed, Richard Dawkins, or the Dalai Lama. Or even all of them.
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ttruscott
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #222 Thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.Willum wrote: But what is preventing the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc., from revealing himself with opposite intent?
The Holy Spirit...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Willum
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #23[Replying to post 21 by FarWanderer]
Sorry, what?
LOL.
Because we can't see him, he has revealed himself?
That's better than God is hiding because faith is necessary!
If you are right, every religion in all the world has reason to be suspect. You can't trust any one at all.
Is that what you are saying?
On the otherhand, there is still the better course of revealing himself.
Sorry, what?
LOL.
Because we can't see him, he has revealed himself?
That's better than God is hiding because faith is necessary!
If you are right, every religion in all the world has reason to be suspect. You can't trust any one at all.
Is that what you are saying?
On the otherhand, there is still the better course of revealing himself.
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Willum
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #24[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]
Having read Thessalonians in context, I say, "what?"
Explain please.
Having read Thessalonians in context, I say, "what?"
Explain please.
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1213
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #25In Biblical point of view, his goal seems to be to deceive and enslave or kill people. If your goal would be the same, how would you show up, impressively, or in secrecy?Willum wrote: ...The question is why Satan doesn't simply make himself known under conditions and in an environment that benefit him, and accomplish his goals.
Anyway, I have understood that Satan is spirit, similarly as God is also spirit. There are many spirits according to the Bible. God is spirit that is love, Holy spirit is called the spirit of truth. And Satan seems to be the spirit that is opposite of love and truth. If person acts in the Spirit that is God (love), his actions are loving, if he acts in the spirit of truth, he speaks the truth. If person is under power of the sprit that is called Satan, he is opposite of truth and love, and then the actions are accordingly, all hateful and evil actions. However, I don’t blame Satan for the evil things people do. It is the people who are guilty for their own actions, even if they are made in the spirit of Satan.
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Willum
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #26[Replying to post 25 by 1213]
Look how willingly members of this very forum are willing to be brides of or slaves to Christ.
I have frequently considered changing my username to 'Christ.'
But were the Devil the real deal, it would be trivial for him to pull over such a hoodwink.
What better way than to deceive, enslave and kill people?
How would you be able to argue with a real deal? A real spirit in the face of a God terrified to show himself?
What would stop him from attaining his goals?
Lordy, I'm repeating myself - I guess were Satan a real deal, then he would reveal himself and everybody would be marching proudly to Hell, never once admitting they were wrong.
Does this remind you of anyone?
Look how willingly members of this very forum are willing to be brides of or slaves to Christ.
I have frequently considered changing my username to 'Christ.'
But were the Devil the real deal, it would be trivial for him to pull over such a hoodwink.
What better way than to deceive, enslave and kill people?
How would you be able to argue with a real deal? A real spirit in the face of a God terrified to show himself?
What would stop him from attaining his goals?
Lordy, I'm repeating myself - I guess were Satan a real deal, then he would reveal himself and everybody would be marching proudly to Hell, never once admitting they were wrong.
Does this remind you of anyone?
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FarWanderer
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #27No, the problem is that the title of the thread presupposes he hasn't revealed himself, while you are also arguing that the most logical way for him to do so would be without our knowledge.Willum wrote: [Replying to post 21 by FarWanderer]
Sorry, what?
LOL.
Because we can't see him, he has revealed himself?
You are basically challenging the theists with "Why doesn't Satan trick me into being an atheist?" when a perfectly good explanation for why you are an atheist is embedded right in the question.
Yes. Every non-Christian has reason to be suspect. Explains a lot, doesn't it?Willum wrote:That's better than God is hiding because faith is necessary!
If you are right, every religion in all the world has reason to be suspect. You can't trust any one at all.
Is that what you are saying?
It is the logical conclusion from the assumption that Satan a.k.a. "The Great Deceiver" exists. For most literalists, anything that leads a person away from YHWH is either Satan himself, or at least a result of his influence. This pattern is established right in the beginning with the Serpent in the Garden (who is never actually referred to as "Satan" in the Bible- identification of the Serpent as Satan arose out of Christian tradition).
As what exactly? It seems to me that you are trying to play for a middle that isn't there.Willum wrote:On the otherhand, there is still the better course of revealing himself.
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imhereforyou
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #28Willum wrote: [Replying to post 14 by imhereforyou]
"Maybe," "perhaps," do you have anything to back it up with? By my counting he should be able to run over the world willie-nillie.
Everything to support God/Devil, outside of the bible, is anecdotal at best - individual experiences, 'maybes & perhaps's' and the like
That works for some people
Not so much for others
We each have to decide which we are
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Willum
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #29[Replying to post 27 by FarWanderer]
Not just that, but the devil tricking people into being Protestants, or Catholics, or Jewish, or whichever religion is wrong and send you to the bad place.
If he announced him as any old messenger of God, and gave a good-sounding message, he'd beat out anything God may or not have said.
Not just that, but the devil tricking people into being Protestants, or Catholics, or Jewish, or whichever religion is wrong and send you to the bad place.
If he announced him as any old messenger of God, and gave a good-sounding message, he'd beat out anything God may or not have said.
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William
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Re: Why doesn't the Devil show himself?
Post #30[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]
To further that problem, which is occulting which?
You say the last thing Satan would want is for people to seek their Creator, and this is why Satan occults himself.
So what reason then would you give as to why the creator would occult himself? The main reason seems to be that anyone looking at this GOD would simply drop dead of fright or some other reasons which overwhelms the biological instrument and causes death.
The option available is discernment but how does one discern other than how we each follow our own minds and hearts? [key]
One might argue that the whole thing is a test for individual humans...'what is GOD and what is DEVIL? You decide.' But that in itself can be said to be a central problem with humanity - agreeing on what is what. It gets down to the individual to decide.
As mentioned in this thread, 'Satan can appear as an angel of light' which is to say, Satan can say things which appear 'good' or 'godly' but are designed to deceive and to mislead humans down a path they think is right (good) but is actually wrong (evil).
One such event recorded in the bible has to do with Saul and his vision where he was blinded by the light. The voice of the light claimed to be Jesus, and asked Saul "why do you persecute me?" Given the idea that 'Satan can appear as an angel of light' one can reason that the event was concocted by Satan in order to deceive Saul because up until then, persecuting followers of Jesus even to death, was only making them stronger and it was Satan's intention to infiltrate the movement and become the GOD of the movement as 'an angel of light'.
Saul (who then afterwards changed his name to Paul) may not have been aware of the deception but was Satan's perfect tool for the deception because he always gave 100% whatever he was involved with, and because he was charismatic and both a Roman and a Jew with influence and influential connections.
And when one studies what Paul writes, one can see where he contradicts what Jesus was supposed to have said.
But the main result is confusion and schism and Christendom becoming a most powerful influence in the history of world events, but not in the manner in which Jesus had advised. Paul took over that role, and his advise was the one Christians followed after.
Suffice to say that without the idea of Satan, Christianity, and indeed all the Organised Abrahamic Religions (OARs) would not be sustainable. So the supporters are at the oars but who really is at the rudder?
.
The problem with your reasoning here is that an idea of a hidden GOD requires a hidden Devil. Hidden itself means 'Occulted' and in that we have both a supposed GOD and a supposed devil occulted - and both purposefully.Good points, plus surely if Satan reveals himself as a supernatural being he will confirm the existence of supernatural beings which naturally will lead reasonable thinkers to conclude if there is a Devil there is probably a God. The last thing I would think Satan would want is for people to seek their Creator. Ignorance is more easy to manipulate than those that are well informed and every mafia leader knows you can get more done from the shadows than you can in the light, if what you want is nefarious.
To further that problem, which is occulting which?
You say the last thing Satan would want is for people to seek their Creator, and this is why Satan occults himself.
So what reason then would you give as to why the creator would occult himself? The main reason seems to be that anyone looking at this GOD would simply drop dead of fright or some other reasons which overwhelms the biological instrument and causes death.
The option available is discernment but how does one discern other than how we each follow our own minds and hearts? [key]
One might argue that the whole thing is a test for individual humans...'what is GOD and what is DEVIL? You decide.' But that in itself can be said to be a central problem with humanity - agreeing on what is what. It gets down to the individual to decide.
As mentioned in this thread, 'Satan can appear as an angel of light' which is to say, Satan can say things which appear 'good' or 'godly' but are designed to deceive and to mislead humans down a path they think is right (good) but is actually wrong (evil).
One such event recorded in the bible has to do with Saul and his vision where he was blinded by the light. The voice of the light claimed to be Jesus, and asked Saul "why do you persecute me?" Given the idea that 'Satan can appear as an angel of light' one can reason that the event was concocted by Satan in order to deceive Saul because up until then, persecuting followers of Jesus even to death, was only making them stronger and it was Satan's intention to infiltrate the movement and become the GOD of the movement as 'an angel of light'.
Saul (who then afterwards changed his name to Paul) may not have been aware of the deception but was Satan's perfect tool for the deception because he always gave 100% whatever he was involved with, and because he was charismatic and both a Roman and a Jew with influence and influential connections.
And when one studies what Paul writes, one can see where he contradicts what Jesus was supposed to have said.
But the main result is confusion and schism and Christendom becoming a most powerful influence in the history of world events, but not in the manner in which Jesus had advised. Paul took over that role, and his advise was the one Christians followed after.
Suffice to say that without the idea of Satan, Christianity, and indeed all the Organised Abrahamic Religions (OARs) would not be sustainable. So the supporters are at the oars but who really is at the rudder?
.
