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rikuoamero
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:05 pm  Moral Question for Christians Reply with quote

On a moral level, this is perhaps the one question that stops me from becoming a Christian again.
On this site, I've been told over and over that Jesus Christ died for us, he died for our sins, that he was the sacrifice for our sins, that he paid the penalty etc etc. That to receive salvation/justification, I have to have faith in/believe in this.

So I'd like to ask the Christians on this site this.
Let's imagine you've gone back in time (no need to discuss how for this question) to the day of Jesus's crucifixion.
Would you prevent the crucifixion? Or even what I would call worse...would you actively take part in it yourself? Would you quite literally nail him to the cross yourself?


That is the reason why I cannot be a Christian. When Christianity praises this event as what saves humanity, I am essentially being told to rejoice at the fact that a (according to Christians) innocent human, one who had done no wrong, was arrested on trumped up charges and executed.
I cannot rejoice at someone's death. Most especially if I would not kill the person myself, if given the opportunity. If I am to be glad that a serial killer has been executed for example, I cannot then say I wouldn't be able to turn on the electrical chair.

If a Christian does happen to say that yes, they would nail Jesus to the cross...then congratulations. You have the courage of your convictions.
You are also another example of what I find so despicable about the religion, in that you are willing to actively murder someone whom you think is innocent for a vague "greater good" that can't be easily explained or understood.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Thu May 31, 2018 12:45 pm
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Like this post (1): benchwarmer
[Replying to post 30 by puddleglum]

I've got you in a contradiction.

From post 27

Quote:
Regarding the questions you asked in the OP, I would not try to stop the crucifixion because my salvation depends on it, but I would not help to carry it out because those who did crucify him were committing a horrible sin.

So crucifixion is a horrible sin.

From Post 30
Quote:
God is without sin.


Again from Post 30

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Christ's death was God's plan.


So God is without sin...but he planned to crucify Christ, which is a horrible sin.

-------------------------

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When we forgive others it only means we don't let their sins affect our relationship with them. When God forgives it means they no longer face eternal punishment for their sins.

We have committed sins of our own so we don't have the right to demand any payment from others when we forgive them. God is without sin.

And God can't not let (note the double negative) our sins affect our relationship with him.
A restriction on the ability of an all powerful being.
Also I thought forgiveness meant that one doesn't demand payment. Not that one can forgive...and demand restitution.

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When I say I can't understand God I mean that I don't have the ability to figure out anything about him be my own efforts.

Thus meaning puddleglum is like a student who has never taken calculus, but thinks to tell others what answer a calculus equation has.

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All I can know is what he has revealed

Surely you mean what other people have said he has revealed? Or are you going to be yet another Christian who insists they hear magical voices?

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and my limited understanding limits what he is able to reveal to me.

Again, disqualifying yourself from telling us what God's nature is.

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God cannot lie or be mistaken. Where does the Bible say he has ever deceived anyone?

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 Verse 11. Even if that verse never existed, even if the Bible didn't just flat out admit that its god character deceives...why should you take it as a given that he doesn't?

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All I am doing is recognizing my own limitations. That is something you aren't doing when you try to pass judgment on God and on those who follow him.

Oh? Are I not supposed to have an opinion on your god character, one that isn't kissing his ass?
Also...yes I am recognising my own limitations. I'm not the one saying I can somehow hear or detect or talk to the all powerful creator spirit of the universe. I leave that egotistical claim to you guys.

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Christ's death was God's plan. I don't have any right to interfere with it.

Wow. So no matter how destructive a plan is, as long as you think this plan comes from God, you won't do anything to interfere with it.
Want to try explaining to me one more time why you deserve to receive eternal life?

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No one deserves salvation. It is a gift God gives us because of his love.

If you don't deserve it...why are you getting it? Why does Christianity say that people who are evil and sinful and wicked are to get eternal life?
Also love? Where's the love in planning a horrible sinful torture and execution?

-------------------
Lastly, you may think of yourself that you're an evil sinner, (and probably think the same of me as well)...but I don't think it of either of us. I don't think you're evil. I don't think you're a sinner. I don't think you don't deserve eternal life.
As far as I can see though, I'm of a better moral character than what your religion has done to you.

Quote:
Instead of criticizing others, you should turn to God and receive this gift for yourself.

I cannot condone receiving it if it's because an innocent man got brutally tortured and executed.
Can you condone receiving a cheque in the mail for a significant sum of money, given to you by the government and taken from the estate of an innocent man who was tortured and executed?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:42 am
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Like this post (1): Overcomer
[Replying to post 31 by rikuoamero]

Quote:
So God is without sin...but he planned to crucify Christ, which is a horrible sin.

God is a trinity made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Jesus, God became a human so he could take on himself the punishment we deserve for our sins.

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I'm not the one saying I can somehow hear or detect or talk to the all powerful creator spirit of the universe. I leave that egotistical claim to you guys.

You could be such a person if you wanted to. God has revealed his existence in nature. It is too complex to have come into existence by itself. If you acknowledge that God is the creatorl and want to know more about him he will guide you into the truth. The key is wanting to know God and being willing to obey him.

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Want to try explaining to me one more time why you deserve to receive eternal life?

I don't deserve it. Neither does anyone else. God has chosen to offer it to anyone who is willing to receive it. If you receive it you will live eternally with God. If you reject it you will be condemned to eternal punishment for your sins.

Quote:
Lastly, you may think of yourself that you're an evil sinner, (and probably think the same of me as well)...but I don't think it of either of us. I don't think you're evil. I don't think you're a sinner. I don't think you don't deserve eternal life.

If you don't think we are sinners that is because you don't understand the standards of right and wrong God has established. Most people who think they are good compare themselves with other people but God doesn't use that as a standard.

His commands can be summed up it two commands, to love God with all our power and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Most people probably have some love for God but if it is less that their love for anything else it is not enough. Most of us care enough aboiut our neighbors to help them when we can but it falls short of loving them as much as we do ourselves.

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Can you condone receiving a cheque in the mail for a significant sum of money, given to you by the government and taken from the estate of an innocent man who was tortured and executed?

Christ's life was not taken from him; he gave it up voluntarily. When he was being arrested and Peter tried to defend him he said, "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?" There is no sin in accepting what another voluntarily gives you.

If you do consider becoming a Christian here is a good place to find out how.

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:04 am
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[Replying to post 32 by puddleglum]

Quote:
God is a trinity made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Jesus, God became a human so he could take on himself the punishment we deserve for our sins.

Does nothing to address or rebut the contradiction you found yourself in - of God being without sin, yet planning and committing a horrible sin.

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You could be such a person if you wanted to.

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe, just maybe, I once DID? Did you glance at my usergroups and see where it says Former Christian?
I was once incredibly devout, but no matter how much I prayed, no matter how much I begged God to speak to me or whatever the correct terminology is...nothing. I got silence. I got the exact same situation as if you had given me a telephone number that doesn't actually work...no actually, worse than that. At least the telephone will say that the number given is in use or not.

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God has revealed his existence in nature. It is too complex to have come into existence by itself.

I suppose God isn't too complex to have come into existence by itself? Either way, this is a statement completely lacking in any sort of substance, so I can safely discard it.

Quote:
If you acknowledge that God is the creatorl and want to know more about him he will guide you into the truth. The key is wanting to know God and being willing to obey him.

As mentioned before, I once did this, but no God guided me. Nothing at all. I might as well have been talking or praying to brick walls for all the effect it had.

Quote:
I don't deserve it. Neither does anyone else. God has chosen to offer it to anyone who is willing to receive it.

Then doing so would be sinful, or unjust or whatever word you want to use. Just because someone is willing to receive something doesn't make their being chosen to receive it a "good" thing.

Quote:
If you receive it you will live eternally with God. If you reject it you will be condemned to eternal punishment for your sins.

Notice that this ultimately has nothing at all to do with sin. I just apparently have to be willing to accept this quote unquote gift. Nothing about my or your behaviour is addressed.

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If you don't think we are sinners that is because you don't understand the standards of right and wrong God has established.

Or what were claimed to be standards God has established. No, I understand them just fine. Remember...former Christian and all that. I've been studying Christianity my entire life. For you to claim I don't understand is really just a back handed slap in the face, simply because I don't believe right now.

Quote:
Most people who think they are good compare themselves with other people but God doesn't use that as a standard.

I compare myself with what is claimed to be your God and find I come out on top. I don't flood planets. I don't send plagues. I don't command fathers to kill their sons. I don't demand one love people who are wholly undeserving of it.
I also work, pay taxes and care for my siblings.

Quote:
His commands can be summed up it two commands, to love God with all our power and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Love cannot and ought not to be commanded. I honestly don't feel love for every single person on the planet. Do you? How could you feel love for people you don't know even exist? I'm aware that there are people in China for example...but I've never been there, don't actually know them so can't feel anything for them.

Quote:
Christ's life was not taken from him; he gave it up voluntarily.

Note that this again does not address my arguments. I have mentioned multiple times the torture and execution of an innocent man. Whether this is done voluntarily or not is beside the point. You yourself called the crucifixion a horrible sin, so really - you ought to not condone it happening, to not condone receiving a benefit from it.
Isn't suicide a sin according to Christianity?

Quote:
If you do consider becoming a Christian here is a good place to find out how.

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

I direct you to this link my member notes.
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32772

You and anyone else who have a Statement of Faith like Carm do are clearly not seekers of truth. Instead, you are preachers of dogma, which is why Carm says
"The Bible is the Word of God and its original manuscripts are free from errors and contradictions. It is the one and only infallible, authoritative, and trustworthy rule for faith and life, (2 Peter. 1:21, 2 Tim. 3:16). The Apocrypha is not inspired scripture and is not part of the canon of scripture. The Bible is to be taken as literally as possible except where obviously figurative. Genesis, for example, is literal, and Adam and Eve were actual people."
(Scientific discoveries over the past couple centuries refute any possibility of there being a literal Adam and Eve who were the first two humans)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:34 am
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Hello Riku!

I have thought about this many times. I wondered if I would be on the sidelines chanting to crucify Him, or if I would be sobbing at His feet. I would hope that I would believe that Jesus was who He said He was. That being said, I also thought, that really the people had no idea what His death would signify, nor did most give much thought to His sinless life. I would guess that the religious leaders thought Jesus was the biggest sinner of all, as He esteemed himself to be of God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:41 am
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Like this post (1): benchwarmer
I'm rereading this thread, and it's telling that no-one, apart from me, is willing to say the following.

I, rikuoamero, would try to prevent the torture and execution of an innocent man.
I, rikuoamero, would not accept the benefits (if any) that comes with the torture and execution of an innocent man unless I was willing to perform the torture and execution myself.
(with substitution of names where required).

I'm a PC gamer. If a man shoots a PC gamer, takes his new graphics card, the RTX 2080 Ti (a card that I want), and hands it to me, I would not accept it.
Much the same with this religion. God has his son killed, then apparently tells me to eat his flesh, drink his blood. That I have to accept the sacrifice.
And I'm sitting here thinking "But that strikes me as perhaps the most immoral thing imaginable!"
I'm thinking of what it is, what it means, to be doing the right thing, and I keep running into this brick wall - innocent people should not be prosecuted for crimes they do not commit and it is wrong to benefit from the prosecution and execution of innocent people.

Let's say my spouse is murdered. A person is charged by the authorities, is found guilty and executed. I look for damages from his estate, in a civil suit. Just as the cheque arrives, it's revealed that the executed man was in fact innocent. I'm left holding in my hand money that was ultimately taken from a person who did not deserve it. In this situation, I cannot condone keeping it.
Can Christians say the same? Their cheque for eternal life has arrived in the mail, and its something received as a result of prosecuting an innocent man. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say "I'm going to keep this, to cash it in"?

I asked a question before, that has gone unanswered.

What if, Overcomer, I refuse to take part in the crucifixion? To have NO PART in the killing of the Son of God?
Hmm...wouldn't that paint me as not an absolute failure?

So Overcomer...how is it I am bad and horrible and evil and sinful...for not doing anything bad and horrible and evil and sinful, for outright rejecting what is perhaps the worst action imaginable, that of participating in torture and execution?

------
My perspective is that I am being told by Christians that up is down, black is white, left is right, right is left...and that I am a sinner for not condoning and rejoicing in receiving a gift come about due to the prosecution, torture and death of an innocent man.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:06 am
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As of the time of writing this comment, my thread here has 1,848 views and (prior to this) 34 replies (counting my own, of course).

In all of that time, even after I reposted the statement that I made, no Christian on this site has agreed with the following

I, [Insert Name], would try to prevent the torture and execution of an innocent man.
I, [Insert Name], would not accept the benefits (if any) that comes with the torture and execution of an innocent man unless I was willing to perform the torture and execution myself.


I am left with only one of two assumptions.
1) No Christian on this site has actually read the statement.
2) No Christian on this site would ever agree with the statement.

I disagree that number 1 is the case, because hey...almost 2,000 views and I've had other replies, from professed Christians, to other posts I've made. I find the thought absurd that somehow, just somehow, my statement has "flown under the radar", so to speak.

So number 2 is the case. Why is it Christians cannot agree with the statement? I've heard it plainly any number of times. Paraphrasing, I'm told that there is too much risk in disregarding the Christian claim. That they will lose heaven, paradise, that to accept Jesus's death is the only way to eternal life.
What I'm hearing is a pragmatic and ultimately selfish argument, and not one made from morality. One might as well be saying that they cannot refrain from shooting a child, if shooting that child ends up with them receiving eternal life.
It's funny. Watch any low-brow horror slasher movie, and there will probably be a storyline of some insane cultists kidnapping innocent people and sacrificing them in a bloody ritual so they can gain eternal life (or some other reward). I see the Christian claim here as no different. Someone else has to suffer and die, so that I can gain.

A Christian can refute this conclusion I've drawn...but you would have to agree with my statement in red up above. However, that would mean you'd have to reject the Christian premise. It would mean that the quote unquote cheque of eternal life that you say you receive from Jesus's death ought not to be ever cashed in.

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