JW organization.

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

JW organization.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.
Last edited by Elijah John on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: JW organization.

Post #491

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 483 by JehovahsWitness]
I don't believe I used the words "no longer relevant to anyone other than the Jews". I tend to be very careful about my choice of words, so I'm pretty sure that expression will not be found in anything I wrote.
You claimed that Christians no longer follow the Mosaic law because the law you follow supersedes the Mosaic law which is only required for Jews or anyone who lives with Jews in Jerusalem etc.

On some level, I would agree, except when it contradicts the Mosaic law because to fulfill the Mosaic law is to love your neighbor, and eating garbage, profaning the Sabbath, engaging in debt slavery, are all examples of contradicting God's law of liberty.

It makes no sense to engage in usury with one's enemies while one is an observant Jew only to extend that activity to one's fellow kinsmen with the advent of Christ. Christ says to treat your enemies as your fellow kinsmen, which means that there can be no usury among Christians.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18462
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 449 times
Been thanked: 708 times
Contact:

Re: JW organization.

Post #492

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 487 by shnarkle]

Well thanks anyway.

I appreciate your input.

Have a most excellent weekend.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
dianaiad
Site Supporter
Posts: 10220
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #493

Post by dianaiad »

shnarkle wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 484 by shnarkle]

Interesting point of view, well we will have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for a lively discussion,

JW
There was no discussion; lively or otherwise. This has always been the case with Jehovah's Witnesses I have encountered. JW's quite simply have no interest in discussing their assertions. They simply feel the need to share them, initially with a few biblical references for support, but when those verses are shown to be referring to the law that was "against" us rather than the law that is "for" us, they bow out. At least you're honest enough to know you have no argument against the biblical texts I've provided. Some don't give up so easily. Unlike you, they don't seem to know much about the texts to begin with. You know better.
Moderator Comment

Do not make this sort of negative generalization about entire groups of people.

This post would be considered to not comply with the guidelines on ranting. Please read through the guidelines and abide by them.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7502
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: JW organization.

Post #494

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.
1) What do any of these prohibitions have to do with Christianity? Answer:

-Voting: Christians do not vote because Jesus Christ is our King/president/governor/chancellor/whatever and we place our hope only in his rule. Christians also know that this world is run by Satan (IJohn 5:19), so why would we join in with its politics? (See also James 4:4; John 17:14; Eccles.8:9; Psalm 146:3.)

-Celebrating birthdays: The early Christians and the Jews of early times did not celebrate birthdays. "The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general." (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, New York, 1838, Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose, pg 190.) "The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days." (The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, London, 1874, edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol.I, pg 225.) "The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating---complete with lighted candles---in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year....Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom." (Schwabische Zeitung, April 3/4, 1981, pg 4) "The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea....This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint....The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks....Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]....Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes." (The Lore of Birthdays, New York, 1952, Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp.8,18-20.)

Wouldn't true Christians feel the need to extricate themselves from such observances? If Christ is the truth (John 14:6), would we mix in UNtruths with our worship of God? (2Corinthians 6:14-17) The bottom line is this: Wholesome gatherings of family and friends AT OTHER TIMES to eat and drink and rejoice are not objectionable.


-Celebrating Christmas or Easter: Christians do not celebrate Christmas because, as M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopoedia says: "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of New Testament origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the N.T., or, indeed, from any other source." (New York, 1871, Vol.II, p.276.) The Encyclopedia Americana says: "The reason for establishing December 25 as Cjristmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.' [The Roman Saturnalia; dies natalis Solis Invicti]...Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome." (1967, Vol.III, p. 656.) What about the "Wise Men" following the star? Those guys were magi---ASTROLOGERS from the East, and the practice of astrology is strongly disapproved in the Bible. Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned? There are other reasons as well that a Christian who appreciated truth and Godly principles would not participate in a celebration with pagan traditions, mixing the truth of Christ with falsehoods.

As for Easter: The Encyclopedia Britannica says: "There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea ABSENT from the minds of the first Christians." (1910, Vol.VIII, p.828.) The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: "A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of Spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early Spring....The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility." (1913, Vol.V, p.227.) Need I say more about the pagan trappings of Easter, and why Christians would not get involved in it?


-Donating or receiving blood transfusions: Christians do not give blood or take blood into their bodies because of a Scriptural command (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:20,29)---blood being sacred to God---and this position is proven correct even in scientific terms by modern medicine. Blood transfusions are old-school, passe, out-of-date, and are held on to by many doctors and hospitals because of the costliness of it and the money blood brings in to their own coffers. In reality it is a ruse to get people's money. Blood substitutes are much more efficient; they cost less, have no side effects, and the patient recovers more quickly. See the following for further information on Bloodless Medicine:


www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bloodless_medicine_surgery

www.upmc.com/Services/patient-blood-man ... ntact.aspx

https://www.pennmedicine.org/for-patien ... e-medicine


Why would conscientious Christians submit to taking someone else's blood into their bodies when (1) the Bible forbids it, and (2) there are many substitutes that are risk-free?


:confused2:
I answered your OP within the first 7 or 8 pages. Did you reply to my post? If so, remind me of which page it is on. Thanks.

DPMartin
Banned
Banned
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:58 pm

Re: JW organization.

Post #495

Post by DPMartin »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

FYI

JW are not Christian by definition of what a Christian is, JW's do not acknowledge Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. their theology is Jesus is an angel or son of an angel, don't remember exactly what but NT scripture states one must acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God to be accepted amongst the Christian ranks which the JW's are not included for this reason.


like Muslims that would have you to believe their god is the God of Abraham, but their god is really an idol Mahammad the prophet of Islam, found in that building they march around in Mecca during their holiday, JW's would let you or even lead you to believe they are Christian when scripture says they don't qualify.

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9491
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Post #496

Post by Bust Nak »

DPMartin wrote: JW are not Christian by definition of what a Christian is...
:warning: Moderator Warning


be advised, such comments now explicitly against our rules: it is not permitted to say another person or group is not a Christian... if the person or group identifies as Christian (this includes Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any group that claims to be Christian).

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: JW organization.

Post #497

Post by Elijah John »

onewithhim wrote: I answered your OP within the first 7 or 8 pages. Did you reply to my post? If so, remind me of which page it is on. Thanks.
My answer is this.

Use extreme caution when you equate unique practics and beliefs of your organization to what "Christians do or do not do".

Such as your statement that "Christians do not celebrate Christmas or Easter". The fact of the matter is that your Christian organization does not, but many other Christian sects (most) do celebrate Christmas and Easter.

The implication of your statement that "Christians do not..." is that those who do practice such holidays are not "real" Christians. Such statements are now, formally against our forum rules.

A safer way to put it would be "Jehovah's Witnesses do not...." Some prohibitions are peculiar to your sect. And those prohibitions, by contrast, are freely, and in good conscience practiced by other Christian sects.

Also, just because Pagans may practice somethings like birthdays, for instance, does not mean that practice is inherently evil, that all Christians should avoid.

After all, Pagans eat meals, should Christians starve themselves? Pagans breath air, should Christians hold their breath because breathing is something pagans do?

It is my position that to make something "off-limits" without good reason, is legalistic. I don't think Moses, Jesus or even Paul made any law against the celebration of birthdays.

And why view birthdays so negatively? Can't birthdays be considered a celebration of the creation of a new human being, who are, after all, made in God's image?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7502
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: JW organization.

Post #498

Post by onewithhim »

DPMartin wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

FYI

JW are not Christian by definition of what a Christian is, JW's do not acknowledge Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. their theology is Jesus is an angel or son of an angel, don't remember exactly what but NT scripture states one must acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God to be accepted amongst the Christian ranks which the JW's are not included for this reason.


like Muslims that would have you to believe their god is the God of Abraham, but their god is really an idol Mahammad the prophet of Islam, found in that building they march around in Mecca during their holiday, JW's would let you or even lead you to believe they are Christian when scripture says they don't qualify.
Sorry, DP Martin, but that is not correct. You say that JWs "do not acknowledge Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. Yes we do. Therefore, you are very wrong about us not being Christian. We are Christian.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7502
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: JW organization.

Post #499

Post by onewithhim »

Elijah John wrote:
onewithhim wrote: I answered your OP within the first 7 or 8 pages. Did you reply to my post? If so, remind me of which page it is on. Thanks.
My answer is this.

Use extreme caution when you equate unique practics and beliefs of your organization to what "Christians do or do not do".

Such as your statement that "Christians do not celebrate Christmas or Easter". The fact of the matter is that your Christian organization does not, but many other Christian sects (most) do celebrate Christmas and Easter.

The implication of your statement that "Christians do not..." is that those who do practice such holidays are not "real" Christians. Such statements are now, formally against our forum rules.

A safer way to put it would be "Jehovah's Witnesses do not...." Some prohibitions are peculiar to your sect. And those prohibitions, by contrast, are freely, and in good conscience practiced by other Christian sects.

Also, just because Pagans may practice somethings like birthdays, for instance, does not mean that practice is inherently evil, that all Christians should avoid.

After all, Pagans eat meals, should Christians starve themselves? Pagans breath air, should Christians hold their breath because breathing is something pagans do?

It is my position that to make something "off-limits" without good reason, is legalistic. I don't think Moses, Jesus or even Paul made any law against the celebration of birthdays.

And why view birthdays so negatively? Can't birthdays be considered a celebration of the creation of a new human being, who are, after all, made in God's image?
You say that JWs don't do certain things "without good reason." Did I not give reasons why we don't do certain things?

You don't mind it that self-proclaimed Christians celebrate pagan holidays or birthdays, yet the Bible states that believers must not combine pagan (demonic) things with the light of Christian teaching.

"What partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial [Satan], or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2Corinthians 6:14,15, NASB)

Does Christ really concede to mixing pure worship with pagan-based practices? I don't think he does, based on what the Bible says about heathen rituals and their legacy. Believers are always told to stay clear of the pagan practices of other groups of people, never to mix with them. When Israelites went away from Israel's camp and partied with the Moabites JHVH took away their lives. Why? Because the Moabites were heathens that gave loyalty to pagan gods, and JHVH brooked no competition with pagan gods. The people who ignored His instruction to not go to the pagan nations and mingle with them and their traditions were cut down.

Is that any different than "Christians" mixing their worship with pagan traditions?

Breathing the same air as pagans is not an issue here. It is their total lack of respect and honor toward JHVH, the one true God. Therefore.....Christians do not mingle with pagans, and that includes their practices, however ancient.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10846
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 545 times
Been thanked: 1199 times
Contact:

Re: JW organization.

Post #500

Post by William »

[Replying to post 496 by onewithhim]
Breathing the same air as pagans is not an issue here. It is their total lack of respect and honor toward JHVH, the one true God. Therefore.....Christians do not mingle with pagans, and that includes their practices, however ancient.
Sometimes I think it is important to keep historical context. Without those pagan rituals, Christianity would not have gotten off the ground, Christendom would not exist, and the bible would not have ever existed or been the best selling piece of fiction the world has ever seen.
Thus, the JW organization would not exist to carry the message that the 'word of GOD' is the 'bible'.

One has to understand that pagan is everything non Jewish and as far as I can tell, JW are not Jewish, no matter how much they call the LORD [font=Courier New]'Whyaitchveeaitch'[/font] or render 'artists impressions' as to what [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font] looks like.

This is to say that, to an orthodox Jew, a JW is 'pagan'and no doubt they would have some problem with how these pagans go around telling everyone that they are witnesses of the LORD [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font].

Seriously, 'pagans' are the competition just like 'blasphemers' and 'heretics' are.

Post Reply