God vs. Jesus-worshippers

[liamconnor]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

[Elijah John]

No, idolatry was never a smiling matter in scripture, so I don't see why he would take it lightly or shrug it off. If we are taking the pattern in the Hebrew scriptures, He would more likely smite you dead. Unless he was feeling generous and then he might possibly send a Prophet to kindly remind you of the first commandment. Then if you didn't listen (or stoned the Prophet) he'd probably smite you dead.

He may or may not send an angel of burn down your house or turn it into a public privy.

I agree with you that Jesus-worship is a form of idolatry. But do you see any shades, degrees of idolatry? Is Jesus-worship just as bad as Baal-worship, for example?

Does God take into account things like indoctination and cultural upbringing as mitigating factors when he considers particular judgements against idolatry, in this case Jesus-worship?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

Idolatry is idolatry, sin is sin. Idolatry carried the death penalty under the Mosaic law so that gives us an idea of how the the God of the bible God feels about worshipping anything or anyone but him.

That said the majority of mankind are not Israelites living 2000 years ago who were educated and contracted under the Mosaic temple system, and held accountable for that contract. Most humans are not educated at all as to what the True God expects of them and I believe God is not holding people who are ignorant of his standards accountable for their ignorance.

JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]

Since Baal doesn't exist then Baal didn't ask for worship either. People are made to worship imo and find something to worship: 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Since that is your view, shouldn't you make absolutely certain that "Jesus is God"? What makes you so sure that he is?

No one can act on that absolutely certainty but "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

Do you think Jesus himself (assuming you will allow the Bible as use in arguments) gives you the room you wish you might have?

For instance Jesus said: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

That claim is blasphemy if Jesus is just a man. Imagine a false preacher like David Koresh claiming that we could only know God by knowing him.

Imo, you do not view Jesus suspiciously enough.

So you doubt that Jesus was a man? Do you see him as entirely supernatural?

Jesus is fully man and fully God.

I don't agree with JWs on every issue, but I do agree with them that Jesus is not God.

You would both be wrong. I think the JWs get very technical in analysing words and phrases but there are many passages in the Bible such as, "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him." which are absolutely horrific if Jesus is not also God.

Who is this liar that puts himself between God and claims to be the only way? Begone.

Unless of course he is God.

How do you respond?

[Elijah John]

Since that is your view, shouldn't you make absolutely certain that "Jesus is God"? What makes you so sure that he is?

No one can act on that absolutely certainty but "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

Isn't that a huge risk? After all, if you believe that Jesus-worship is idolatry if Jesus is not God, then why take the chance? Especially since there is already a God, (YHVH) the Father to worship, and already a Savior, namely YHVH God. The God of Jesus.

Do you think Jesus himself (assuming you will allow the Bible as use in arguments) gives you the room you wish you might have?

Not up to me on what to "allow" in this forum and what not to. The forum allows/encourages use of the Bible here.

For instance Jesus said: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

That puts the Gospel of John above the rest of the Bible. Moses knew the Father, without the Son. The Prophets new the Father, without the Son. King David knew the Father, without the Son..etc.

"John" has his own spin, interpretation of Jesus. And I am convinced "John" put words on Jesus lips in a theologically interpretive way. That is why the GoJ is so different than the Synoptics, which I believe better represent what Jesus actually said.

That claim is blasphemy if Jesus is just a man. Imagine a false preacher like David Koresh claiming that we could only know God by knowing him.

One can only know God, by knowing "God"? Isn't that essentially what you are saying by claiming that Jesus is God? Isn't that what John's version of Jesus is actually saying?

Why not go straight to the Source, then. God. The Father, YHVH. After all, that is what Jesus actually taught. (The Lord's prayer, The Sermon on the Mount, the Parables, etc.)

With so much at stake, seems to me that so many put an awful lot of trust in the unknown author of the Gospel of John, and his represntation of Jesus.

Let me put it this way. What is more likely, that a man, no matter how well intentioned would embellish? Or that a first century Jewish Rabbi would claim to be "God in the flesh" and still have Jewish, completely Monotheistic followers, (not Trinitarians).

You would both be wrong. I think the JWs get very technical in analysing words and phrases but there are many passages in the Bible such as, "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him." which are absolutely horrific if Jesus is not also God.

Who is this liar that puts himself between God and claims to be the only way? Begone.

Unless of course he is God.

How do you respond?

Unless, of course, JW's understand the same Scriptures differently than you do. They have an extremely high view of Jesus, and consider him the "firstborn of all Creation, without whom nothing was created". But unlike Trinitarians, they see Jesus as the created Son of God.

The "Son of God" is not God.

And for clarity, they have a much higher Christology than I do, (though lower than you do)

In spite of their very high Christology, JW's worship Jehovah alone, and not Jesus.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 14 by Elijah John]

Just for reference:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/11-27.htm

http://biblehub.com/luke/10-22.htm

Now how do you cope with a man saying:

Matthew 11:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

[JehovahsWitness]

Now how do you cope with a man saying:

Matthew 11:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I don't take the verse literally, ie Jesus wasn't saying that noone by himself had any information at all about God. After all Abraham was spoken of as a friend of God so he must have known something about God.

Rather, the Jehovah's Witness view is that Jesus was speaking in relative terms, that nobody knows the Father better than his son. Jesus most certainly was not claiming equality with the Father nor was he saying he is God.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS