JWs vs Evangelicals

[Elijah John]

There are a few verses from the New Testament that support the notion that Jesus is God. A position favored by Evangelicals and Trinitarians.

Then there are some that support the notion that Jesus is NOT God. A position favored by Jehovah's Witnesses, unitarians (small "u") and other Arians.

For debate, isn't this divide major evidence that the Bible is indeed contradictory in some very important ways?

If not, how do you explain the divide, as both camps claim the Bible is infallible and without contradiction?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 26 by onewithhim]

When Paul wrote that "everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".

Was he speaking of the Lord Jehovah? Or the Lord Jesus.

At Romans 10:13 Paul was quoting Joel 2:32 where it says, according to Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Scriptures, "Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered."

Peter also quoted Joel 2:32 in his speech at Acts 2:21.

In the context of Paul's usage, (not the quote he lifted) do you think Paul meant Jesus or Jehovah?

This could be a good topic unto itself. There are ramifications either way.

I have posted my thoughts on this to you before. I believe that Paul was referring to Jehovah, otherwise he would not have lifted the quote from Joel. He always distinguished God (Jehovah) from the Lord Jesus.

Yes, he did use the word "Lord". But Paul sometimes conflates. As in "the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wonder, does Paul use the same Greek word when he says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" as he does when he refers to the Lord Jesus Christ?

It's a given that Joel 2:32 refers to Jehovah. His name is there. Of course Paul and Peter mean to say Jehovah when they quote that verse. I don't understand how you can get confused over this. Both apostles call Jesus the Lord, but they're not confusing him with Jehovah. Usually when referring to Jehovah they will use the title "God." It is men who have switched out the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures and inserted "Lord."

[onewithhim]

'The Church' has many of it's own writings yet with all of it's decrees and policies they claim come from God, they have not been added to Bible canon and dubbed 'Holy Scripture'.

Why should they need be?

When they don't follow what the Bible says and are contradictory. That means that decrees are man-made and not God inspired. In the Bible decrees like on whether circumcision was required were added as part of the Bible. Zero of the Church's decrees have been added....

Likewise, the WTS adds man-made rules such as prohibition of birthdays, Christmas and Easter.

Is any religous organization immune from such non-inspired, man-made regulation?

Really, how can you make such statements when it has been clearly explained just why birthdays and holidays are eschewed by Jehovah's Witnesses? It is all based on the Bible and clear Christian principles. The WTS didn't make anything up. Most churches simply ignore what the Bible says on many subjects.

[onewithhim]

Tree worship, bunny worship and self-worship are all unapproved by the Bible.

And none of those things happen in the RCC's Mass. That is a very cynical way to view those holidays. Birthdays are not "self-worship", to celebrate a person by one's loved ones is not "worship". It can be viewed as an act of appreciation of God's most wonderous creation, namely that of a human being, made in the image of God.

And any pagan overtones to popular celebrations of Christmas and Easter, are just that, popular folk-ways, and not part of the official religous observance. Which by contrast celebrate the birth and resurrection of Christ, respectively. I've seen plenty of Christ-centered observance at holiday Mass, with ne'er a bow to tree or bunny.

Birthdays? We feel that "God's most wondrous creation, namely that of a human being," should be celebrated each and every day, and in fact this is what we do. We give gifts to these beloved human beings and have parties often throughout the year, and always treat them with love and respect. Is that not worth just as much to you as celebrating a birthday once a year?

You say that the churches do not include idolatrous decorated trees and bunnies and eggs in their "official religious observance," but aren't these things included in their extra-curricular activities? How does that let them off the hook as to their participation in pagan traditions? It's really OK to celebrate Jesus' resurrection and mix it in with egg-hunts? Is he pleased with that? Or do you think that he turns a blind eye to all that? And it's interesting that you laud the celebration of Jesus' birth and his resurrection, and yet the only thing he told us to celebrate was his death. (Luke 22:19) There is no place in the Scriptures where Jesus even hints at celebrating his birth or his resurrection.

(It's interesting, BTW, that birthdays were not celebrated by the Jews or even by the earliest Christians. It was considered, as was mentioned, self-worship. Do some research. )

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Most churches simply ignore what the Bible says on many subjects.

You mean like these . . .


“For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.…� –John 6:55

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?� 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you,unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Sonof Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.� –Matthew 25:46

“7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.� –Jude 1:7

“19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.� –Matthew 16:19

“I and the Father are one�. –John 10:30

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,� they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.� –Acts 1:10

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Most churches simply ignore what the Bible says on many subjects.

You mean like these . . .


“For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.…� –John 6:55

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?� 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you,unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Sonof Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.� –Matthew 25:46

“7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.� –Jude 1:7

“19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.� –Matthew 16:19

“I and the Father are one�. –John 10:30

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,� they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.� –Acts 1:10

John 6:55 is a reference to the necessity of people understanding and accepting the fact of Jesus' death for the salvation of all mankind. Certainly not a reference to say that people must eat his body and drink his blood in a literal sense.

"Eternal fire" is a metaphor for everlasting annihilation, not for a literal roasting of people in a fire forever. Such thinking is sadistic.

Peter was given "keys" to the Kingdom, and Christ's true church would always prevail, even if it was composed of only a "few." (Matthew 7:14) Peter's "keys" opened the way for Jews and Gentiles alike to take advantage of God's invitation to follow Christ and rule with him in heaven, over the earth. That true church is the one that is following Christ's footsteps and proclaiming the Kingdom of God as a real government.

John 10:30 does not say that Jesus and his Father are the same Person. Jesus said that he and the Father are in agreement. It is exactly the same meaning as we can see at John 17:21-23, where the disciples are to be "one" with Jesus and the Father.

Jesus will not come visibly again, and it's pretty clear that that is the case from what the angels said in the first chapter of Acts. A cloud caught Jesus up from their vision. They could no longer see him. The angels said that he would return in like manner.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

John 6:55 is a reference to the necessity of people understanding and accepting the fact of Jesus' death for the salvation of all mankind. Certainly not a reference to say that people must eat his body and drink his blood in a literal sense.

Sure, that’s why the crowd was offended and said how can this man give us his flesh and Jesus’ response was, “Truly, Truly I say to you . . . my body is true food and my blood true drink� And Scripture tells us after hearing this many (just like yourself) didn’t accept that and left.

"Eternal fire" is a metaphor for everlasting annihilation, not for a literal roasting of people in a fire forever. Such thinking is sadistic.

Except annilation wouldn’t be eternal punishment – that is illogical thinking.

Peter was given "keys" to the Kingdom, and Christ's true church would always prevail, even if it was composed of only a "few." (Matthew 7:14) Peter's "keys" opened the way for Jews and Gentiles alike to take advantage of God's invitation to follow Christ and rule with him in heaven, over the earth. That true church is the one that is following Christ's footsteps and proclaiming the Kingdom of God as a real government.

Did I say anything different? Only the Catholic Church has an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession dating back to Peter, who Christ gave the keys.

John 10:30 does not say that Jesus and his Father are the same Person. Jesus said that he and the Father are in agreement.

Actually, He said we are ONE. In addition to many other passages in Scripture supporting the Trinity.

Jesus will not come visibly again

The passage I cited says otherwise.

Aaaaand the point with all of this is who gets to decide who is ignoring what Scripture says or saying something contrary to Scripture? Onewithim? Hmmmmm . . . sounds sketch.

My point in posting those passages is to simply demonstrate the irony in your original comment,

Most churches simply ignore what the Bible says on many subjects.

True that.

[ttruscott]

the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4),

Not exactly. Here's what the Shema states: " Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:"

The word "God" in the Hebrew is the plural form of God "Elohim", and it is this plural form that is one "Lord". It is not God that is one, but the Lord that is one. It doesn't state that the lord is one God, but that the Elohim is one Lord.

The word "LORD" is not in the writing. Lord is Adonai and is said in place of speaking GOD's name, YHWH. The verse says: YHWH elohim, YHWH `echad, ie, a unity, ie, YHWH our GODs, YHWH a unity.

that the Father and the Son are different (John 17:3), and that Jesus is God (the prologue of John).

Nope. There is no place in the prologue to John's gospel that states that Jesus is God.

Well, verses 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
with verse
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. is interpreted by many as an acceptable reference to Christ's deity. That another does not agree is not a proof it isn't of course, and vice versa. Christians accept living by faith, not proof.