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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:54 am
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Wealth Redistribution

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Socialists use compassion (a religious concept) as the reason to forcibly redistribute wealth. But I think that's more politics than compassion. If we're going to be uniform in our compassion, that redistribution would have to take place world wide. Is there anyone in the US, other than the voluntarily poor (drop outs) who wouldn't be giving up a major portion of their incomes to others outside the US.

The average income in the US is $27K*, which does not include government aid in the form of: housing, furniture, appliances, utilities, transportation, healthcare and food stamps, which could easily bump that up to $30K.

The average global income, $3K, does NOT usually include any of the above US benefits. So the average American would be redistributing in cash and benefits $27K, raising the global average to what, guessing $3.5K...OK $4K.

So now what, put it to a vote? Keep in mind that the vote must necessarily be worldwide. Democracy would truly be compassionate then, don't you think?

Wouldn't it be better to promote economic freedom (capitalism with legal oversight) around the world, which rising tide would raise all boats.

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15K[/code]

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:50 am
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ThePainefulTruth wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to promote economic freedom (capitalism with legal oversight) around the world, which rising tide would raise all boats.


Capitalism in and of itself is not the problem. The problem is the greedy abuse of capitalism. And legal oversight isn't helping because the laws are totally ignorant and oblivious to the real problems with capitalism.

The real problem with our economy is that manufacturers are producing "throw-away" products. Products that are either designed purposefully to become obsolete or useless in very short order, or products that have a limited life span and are extremely costly to repair.

A "trickle-down" economy made sense back in the days when products did not become obsolete overnight, and used products could be recycled by lesser income individuals because repairing those used products was both possible and inexpensive. But those days are over. A "trickle-down" economy won't work when products cannot be reused/repaired inexpensively by those of lesser income. And that's the situation we are in today. Precisely because manufactures are designing products that cannot be reused/repaired inexpensively.

Add to this the introduction of robotics and automation in the manufacturing process. Human laborers are simply no longer required to make the products in numbers that used to be required. So jobs for laborers are becoming scarce. Especially labor that pays much of anything.

So the problem isn't capitalism itself, but rather the way that is is being implemented. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in our current capitalistic system. That's a well-documented fact.


ThePainefulTruth wrote:

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15


These numbers are meaningless. For one thing these are 'averages'. Don't think that this means that most people make these wages. That's far from the truth. In fact, most people make far less, and the reason is that there are many people who are making $100K+++ or more. So in order to get these "averages" this means that many MORE people must be making minimum wage or less.

So if you think these averages reflect what most people are making you're not recognizing the reality of the situation.

Consider also that movie stars, athletes, rock stars, etc, are included in these averages and many of them are making an income of a million dollars or far more.

In order for that to average down to say $30k there needs to be a WHOLE LOT of people making FAR LESS than $30k.

So if $30k is an average income, that's actually pretty bad. Especially in the US economy.

You've mentioned other countries where the income is far lower. Those countries are indeed far poorer, but their overall economy is far less expensive too. They aren't going to be paying the same in property taxes, rent, etc. So it's not really a fair comparison to compare the USA with a country that has a totally different economic structure.

But again, it's not capitalism itself that is the problem. It's the greedy abuse of capitalism that is the problem. And "legal oversight" doesn't even begin to address these problems. If it did, it would demand that companies make products that will last and be reusable and repairable at a reasonable cost. That's not the world we live in today. Perhaps in the 1950's it was. But not in 2018.

So "legal oversight" is basically blind to the real problems.

I'm not sure if socialism is the answer either. If we're still manufacturing "throw-away" products that can't be easily repaired or reused, then even socialism can't save us.

Companies do this because they want to sell NEW PRODUCTS. They don't want you to be fixing up used stuff so you don't need to buy new. So they make it impossible for any real "trickle-down" to occur. If you can't afford to buy new, you're out of luck. So the poor people not only make less money, but they don't have enough money to do anything with anyway. In other words, a little bit of money is basically useless. If you can't afford to buy a new product, and used products are no longer feasible, then what good does a little bit of money do you? Think

In short, in today's world a "rising tide" in the economy doesn't raise "all boats". It only raises the rich boats. The poor boats are left to sink.

This is why Trump's thinking is simply outdated. His ideas might have worked well in the 1950's. But today they are simply out of place.

He's going to bring back the steel mills and coal mines???

Has anyone realized that automation and robotics has replaced the labor force anyway? Even if we did start to manufacture steel and coal in the USA, it's not going to translate into large numbers of manual laborers. This is no longer the 1950's.

If we're going to go back to the 1950's we need to start manufacturing products that can be easily repaired and last a long time. And we need to toss out all our industrial robotics too to make room for manual human labor! That's just not going to happen.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:57 am
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ThePainefulTruth wrote:

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15K


By the way, in the USA rent is often $1000 a month or close to it. So someone making $15k a year can pay the rent for a place to live and that's about it. They wouldn't even have room in their budget to buy a car. Much less pay for weekly gasoline to drive to work, car insurance, license fees, driver's license, etc. How about clothes to wear, and food to eat?

$15k in the USA is just barely surviving! And that's an AVERAGE which means that there must be a whole lot of people who make far less. They can't even afford to pay rent, never mind anything else.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:20 am
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Divine Insight wrote:

ThePainefulTruth wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to promote economic freedom (capitalism with legal oversight) around the world, which rising tide would raise all boats.


Capitalism in and of itself is not the problem. The problem is the greedy abuse of capitalism. And legal oversight isn't helping because the laws are totally ignorant and oblivious to the real problems with capitalism.


Greed is the most misused word in the English language. The first priority is to enforce the law and corrupt politicians who have a majority of voters beholding to them is a much more vile form of greed. A populace who votes with integrity, holds their politicians to a high standard of integrity (the real problem), and the use of pressure on companies who operate in the shadows, and a media who supplies them with unbiased information, is the best way to make capitalism work. With socialism, the centralization of power with a biased media makes an honest government impossible.

Quote:
The real problem with our economy is that manufacturers are producing "throw-away" products. Products that are either designed purposefully to become obsolete or useless in very short order, or products that have a limited life span and are extremely costly to repair.


What do you suggest, make them so that only the wealthy can afford them? And in the last 25 years the lifespan of many goods has improved enormously. That along with recycling and every improving products due to capitalist competition
, has things looking very bright. Even people who live in the woods or caves have waste--or should we do away with humans as some have suggested?

Quote:
A "trickle-down" economy made sense back in the days when products did not become obsolete overnight, and used products could be recycled by lesser income individuals because repairing those used products was both possible and inexpensive. But those days are over. A "trickle-down" economy won't work when products cannot be reused/repaired inexpensively by those of lesser income. And that's the situation we are in today. Precisely because manufactures are designing products that cannot be reused/repaired inexpensively.


"According to the New York Times, in the 1960s and 1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles, but due to manufacturing improvements such as tighter tolerances and better anti-corrosion coatings, in the 2000s the typical car lasts closer to 200,000 miles.[4]"--Wiki

Ain't capitalistic competition grand!

And have you noticed that cars don't leak oil like they used to. You almost never see anyone checking the oil when they gas up. And puhhhleeeze with the "trickle-down" media bias lingo. Or did you miss JFK's take on the subject, above.

Quote:
Add to this the introduction of robotics and automation in the manufacturing process. Human laborers are simply no longer required to make the products in numbers that used to be required. So jobs for laborers are becoming scarce. Especially labor that pays much of anything.


If you haven't noticed the increase in employment, in all time record numbers for blacks and Hispanics, since Trump was elected, I wouldn't be surprised, given the media bias.

Quote:
So the problem isn't capitalism itself, but rather the way that is is being implemented. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in our current capitalistic system. That's a well-documented fact.


"Well documented" like global warming bs? If you really look, the documentation is exaggerated or not there at all.


Quote:
ThePainefulTruth wrote:

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15


These numbers are meaningless. For one thing these are 'averages'. Don't think that this means that most people make these wages. That's far from the truth. In fact, most people make far less, and the reason is that there are many people who are making $100K+++ or more. So in order to get these "averages" this means that many MORE people must be making minimum wage or less.

So if you think these averages reflect what most people are making you're not recognizing the reality of the situation.

Consider also that movie stars, athletes, rock stars, etc, are included in these averages and many of them are making an income of a million dollars or far more.

In order for that to average down to say $30k there needs to be a WHOLE LOT of people making FAR LESS than $30k.


So if $30k is an average income, that's actually pretty bad. Especially in the US economy.[/quote]

And you're forgetting the government add ons that they don't have to provide. And the ones making gazillions are a drop in the bucket.



Quote:
You've mentioned other countries where the income is far lower. Those countries are indeed far poorer, but their overall economy is far less expensive too. They aren't going to be paying the same in property taxes, rent, etc. So it's not really a fair comparison to compare the USA with a country that has a totally different economic structure.


Yet the keep wanting to come here.

Living condition in three-quarters of the world is inhumane, due usually to socialist governments which include fascist national socialists. Why does everyone want to immigrate here? And who's wanting to leave the US? All those people who swore they'd leave if Trump got elected have suddenly forgotten their pledge.

Quote:
I'm not sure if socialism is the answer either. If we're still manufacturing "throw-away" products that can't be easily repaired or reused, then even socialism can't save us.


Then out of curiosity, what are you suggesting.

Quote:
Companies do this because they want to sell NEW PRODUCTS.



Quote:
This is why Trump's thinking is simply outdated. His ideas might have worked well in the 1950's. But today they are simply out of place.


His outdated policies have the economy roaring better than ever.

Quote:
He's going to bring back the steel mills and coal mines???


And that's BAD?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 am
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Divine Insight wrote:

ThePainefulTruth wrote:

* Av. income for US by race:
Whites $31K
Asians $30K
Blacks $18K
Hispanics $15K


By the way, in the USA rent is often $1000 a month or close to it. So someone making $15k a year can pay the rent for a place to live and that's about it. They wouldn't even have room in their budget to buy a car. Much less pay for weekly gasoline to drive to work, car insurance, license fees, driver's license, etc. How about clothes to wear, and food to eat?

$15k in the USA is just barely surviving! And that's an AVERAGE which means that there must be a whole lot of people who make far less. They can't even afford to pay rent, never mind anything else.


Again, you're forgetting, or ignoring, the government benefits along with the higher pay and living conditions than they were used to. I ask again, why are they coming here and not leaving? Many of those Hispanics are illegals and off the books so no payroll withholding

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:26 am
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Re: Wealth Redistribution

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[Replying to post 1 by ThePainefulTruth]

ThePainefulTruth: "Socialists use compassion (a religious concept) as the reason to forcibly redistribute wealth."

It is not necessary to have "compassion" to endorse socialism. Because of positive feedbacks, capitalism inevitably concentrates wealth into fewer and fewer hands. Like all positive feedbacks this destabilizes the system. It is a function of government to stabilize the system so, in fact, government must institute negative feedbacks, such as progressive taxation and redistribution of wealth to prevent violent revolution.

Moreover, it is not poverty, per se, that destabilizes a society. It is the economic distance between the richest and the poorest. (See, for instance, Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst, by Robert Sapolsky.) The more egalitarian a society, economically and socially, the more stable the society is, and the more likely it is to survive crises.

But capitalism in the US is every bit as delusional as religion, because religion is the index of societal misery, of inequality, of corruption and hopelessness.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." -- Ephesians 6:5 NIV

"Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." --- 1 Peter 2:18 NIV

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." --- Colossians 3:22 NIV

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
--- Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right, Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, 7 & 10 February 1844


Study

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 am
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ThePainefulTruth wrote:

Quote:
He's going to bring back the steel mills and coal mines???


And that's BAD?


If you think that's a good idea, and will recreate lots of high-paying manual labor jobs again, then there isn't much use in talking with you. It's never going to happen.

Did you miss the part about automation? Let's not ignore pollution either.

In fact, here's a message to Donald Trump from Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's right on the money.

Trying to bring back outdated technologies that cause massive pollution is not only ignorant, but it won't recreate all those original manual labor jobs anyway. So it wouldn't even work to produce jobs for the middle class even if you didn't care about the pollution.

So yes, trying to bring back steel mills and coal mines thinking that it's going to be a magic bullet to bring back the economy like it was in the 1950's is ludicrous. It's just not an intelligent proposal.


YouTube

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:23 pm
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ThePainefulTruth wrote:
Socialists use compassion (a religious concept) as the reason to forcibly redistribute wealth.

Do they? If they do that is not Socialism. Do you have real examples of socialists giving that argument?

ThePainefulTruth wrote:
But I think that's more politics than compassion.

Not sure what it is. Guilt? sense of Charity. Neither is Socialism.

ThePainefulTruth wrote:
If we're going to be uniform in our compassion,

Socialism is not about or motivated by compassion in the sense you mean.

the OP is bit of a straw man to be honest.

Socialism in its many forms is mostly motivated by the perceived failures of capitalism. Socialism accepts capitalism is flawed and is a reaction to capitalism. The problem is not bad greedy people and bad actors. These are just symbols of the deeper systematic problems that go with capitalism. Milder socialists and social democrats tend towards the idea the worst excesses of capitalism need to be regulated and militated against. Some Keynesians think regulation and wealth distribution is preferable to revolution - their motivations are more practical than compassionate. More full blooded socialists thinks capitalism can be overturned. They don't think this because they feel poor people are missing out, they tend to believe this because they think capitalism is a cause of why they are poor and it is the reason why a large part of society remains poor and that inevitably capitalism will collapse under the weight of its own self contradictions.

Critics of socialism often seem to imagine Soviet style state control is the only socialist model and fail to engage with the the idea of cooperatives and worker partnerships and mixed economies. thy ignore the fact most Socialists only advocate some kind of mixed economy.

ThePainefulTruth wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to promote economic freedom (capitalism with legal oversight) around the world,

Depends what you mean by freedom. Freedom to join a union and strike? usually the phrase "economic freedom" is code for clamping down on unions and workers rights.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:49 pm
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Divine Insight wrote:

ThePainefulTruth wrote:

Quote:
He's going to bring back the steel mills and coal mines???


And that's BAD?


If you think that's a good idea, and will recreate lots of high-paying manual labor jobs again, then there isn't much use in talking with you. It's never going to happen.

Did you miss the part about automation? Let's not ignore pollution either.

In fact, here's a message to Donald Trump from Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's right on the money.

Trying to bring back outdated technologies that cause massive pollution is not only ignorant, but it won't recreate all those original manual labor jobs anyway. So it wouldn't even work to produce jobs for the middle class even if you didn't care about the pollution.

So yes, trying to bring back steel mills and coal mines thinking that it's going to be a magic bullet to bring back the economy like it was in the 1950's is ludicrous. It's just not an intelligent proposal.


YouTube


Outdated much more fuel-effecient and less polluting technologies.

And BTW, ya got one by me, distracted me with all those read herrings from the original question: What about worldwide redistribution of wealth, you for it or not. I figure with all those red herrings you're probably side-stepping it.

And Schwarzenegger...really. Coal does have one moderate problem, Nitrogen oxides, which is worse from cars, but I feel sure the upcoming clean coal technology should reduce that problem to acceptable levels, and it's hard to find information on it from a reputable source. As for CO2, bring it on. That's been a hoax from the beginning.


Last edited by ThePainefulTruth on Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:11 pm
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ThePainefulTruth wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:


So the problem isn't capitalism itself, but rather the way that is is being implemented. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in our current capitalistic system. That's a well-documented fact.


"Well documented" like global warming bs? If you really look, the documentation is exaggerated or not there at all.


He is half right. Its is well documented that the rich get richer. However, that is not due to capitalism. It is due to the law of commons. Regarding the poor, they don't necessarily get poorer. If they take part in the economy and control consumption, they to can get richer. In order for the rich to get richer, there must be increased economic activity and when the poor get poorer there is a decreased economic base. Therefore, it is in the interest of the rich to make the economy profitable for everyone who is actively involved. This is best done through the open market and targeted charity. Just taking resources out of production to distribute them for consumption, reduces productivity and shrinks the economy, while at the same time increasing demand and raising prices. This is what happened under Nixon, Ford and Carter, after Johnson tried it with the Great Society. It wasn't until taxes were reduced under Reagan that the economy came back. Unfortunately, the government spending continued, maintaining consumer demand in those areas effected. Most notably the health care industry.

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