The pursuit of knowledge and truth, through God, through science, through civil and engaging debate

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Reply to topic
Willum
First Post
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:04 am  Religion vs Science - Proof Reply with quote

Why is it that it requires tons and tons of evidence and even practical application to demonstrate a theory in science.
And theories are treated with contempt, as if our world didn't rely on gravity and electricity.

But religion has three books, no back-up and virtually everything is contested, not observed or shown to be false, yet it has such a strong following?

What can explain the idea overwhelming proof can not dismiss anecdotal or idealistic religion?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 41: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:29 pm
Reply

Like this post (1): DeMotts
[Replying to post 40 by DeMotts]

We can also cut him open, examine the bone tissue, and inspect the atomic composition of the structural material, applying knowledge of the elements' known rates of decay, and come up with an average dietary composition.

We can also examine the composition of his internal organs, the proteins that his body naturally produces, and the enzymatic processes that determine what foods he is or isn't capable of digesting.

To those who maybe aren't getting it: Using one very simple assumption, we can glean a lot of information from physical remains. This assumption: The universe's physical laws are constant, meaning we will not observe a change that alters the relational interaction between physical objects in the universe. Sure, it's an assumption, but it's also one that every single human readily applies to their daily lives, and is only contested with the mysticists try their darndest to subvert science with their superstitions and myths.

Because the universe's laws are the same now as they were five minutes ago, we can extrapolate that they were the same a year ago. Two years, 3 years... Well, look at that, we look at the mineral composition of the ground beneath our feet and that tells us there were a range of complex physical interactions resembling those we observe today. So the universe existed many more years ago. And look at this, when we observe something happening now, and we see evidence of that thing happening in the past... we can infer it happened in the past! Even a child could understand this.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 42: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:11 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to Neatras]

Yes, exactly! I've always wondered why some people advocate so strongly for the supernatural - if your stance is that any property of the universe can change at any point for any reason, then why would you ever expect things to behave normally or consistently? And yet we do, of course. The alternative is ridiculous.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 43: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:25 am
Reply

Like this post
DeMotts wrote:

[Replying to Neatras]

Yes, exactly! I've always wondered why some people advocate so strongly for the supernatural - if your stance is that any property of the universe can change at any point for any reason, then why would you ever expect things to behave normally or consistently? And yet we do, of course. The alternative is ridiculous.


Indeed. Not only that...but how can such a person prove that the laws were actually different? Oh sure they could try to date things using scientific methods such as carbon 14 dating...but wait...oops! Laws can change, seemingly on a dime!
What we have, what the situation is, we have stories that depict a world that operates under physical laws quite different to our own. The believer knows that the real world is at odds with the story world, and so says, that both worlds exist, and that the ways matter and energy interact were actually different a mere few thousand years ago. But sans the story, he has literally nothing at all to go on. How can he prove that, prior to Noah's flood for instance, that all animals were herbivores (yes, I've seen this claim being made)?
What data can such a person gather if he operates under the axiom that data is inherently untrustworthy?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 44: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:12 pm
Reply

Like this post
DeMotts wrote:
How can he prove that, prior to Noah's flood for instance, that all animals were herbivores (yes, I've seen this claim being made)?
What data can such a person gather if he operates under the axiom that data is inherently untrustworthy?


But that's a literal reading of the bible. Sensible religious people don't approach the bible like this. The Old Testament bible is not a religion, it is an account of Jewish history. It is not meant to be take literally.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 45: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:29 pm
Reply

Like this post
mgb wrote:

DeMotts wrote:
How can he prove that, prior to Noah's flood for instance, that all animals were herbivores (yes, I've seen this claim being made)?
What data can such a person gather if he operates under the axiom that data is inherently untrustworthy?


But that's a literal reading of the bible. Sensible religious people don't approach the bible like this. The Old Testament bible is not a religion, it is an account of Jewish history. It is not meant to be take literally.

Bit of a "No True Scotsman" fallacy there mgb. Do "sensible religious people" believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Do they believe also that the dead saints came out of their graves and appeared to people in Jerusalem? (Matthew 27)

What level of supernatural literalism do sensible religious people attribute to the inerrant word of god?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 46: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:40 pm
Reply

Like this post
DeMotts wrote:
Bit of a "No True Scotsman" fallacy there mgb. Do "sensible religious people" believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Do they believe also that the dead saints came out of their graves and appeared to people in Jerusalem? (Matthew 27)

What level of supernatural literalism do sensible religious people attribute to the inerrant word of god?



Do sensible scientists talk about how far you have to travel in the multiverse before you meet a copy of yourself? There's science and there's science. There's religion and there's religion. It depends on many things.

Careful reading of the gospel stories suggest that it was an appearence of the spirit of Jesus that people saw. Likewise with people coming out of their graves. None of this may be physical. At any rate, it is not necessary to believe the bible stories to be religious. None of them are essential to religion. Not even the ressurection. The essence of Jesus's teaching is 'I am the way'. That's it. That is Taoism (The Tao = The Way). Religion is a very broad word and you cannot address religion by picking a story out of the bible and presenting it as typical of religion. Religion and religious beliefs are not the same thing. Religion, in its purest form, is a way of life, not a belief in theology. Personally I don't think it is the least important whether Jesus is the Son of God (in the way doctrine says He is). Ultimately religion is not about theology at all. It is a vastly complex subject.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 47: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:08 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 46 by mgb]

I think that the hallmark of a sensible scientist is one that knows where the line is between what they can prove and what they can't.

The dividing line on religion for me personally has always been: where does it start interfering with other people's lives? If you want to follow the teachings of Jesus and love your neighbour, be my guest. If at any point you start using a belief in the supernatural to justify an otherwise unfair position I take issue. Advocating for intelligent design in science classrooms, trying to ban abortion or birth control, limiting rights for LGBTQ people - any time someone takes a stand on a issue like that not because they're informed but because they're convinced god wants things a certain way is my "line" so to speak.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 48: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:46 am
Reply

Like this post
DeMotts wrote:

[Replying to post 46 by mgb]

I think that the hallmark of a sensible scientist is one that knows where the line is between what they can prove and what they can't.

The dividing line on religion for me personally has always been: where does it start interfering with other people's lives? If you want to follow the teachings of Jesus and love your neighbour, be my guest. If at any point you start using a belief in the supernatural to justify an otherwise unfair position I take issue. Advocating for intelligent design in science classrooms, trying to ban abortion or birth control, limiting rights for LGBTQ people - any time someone takes a stand on a issue like that not because they're informed but because they're convinced god wants things a certain way is my "line" so to speak.



I tend to agree. But discussions about the social aspects of religion are a subject in itself. This is quite separate to whether there is spiritual truth in religion or whether God exists. If atheists do bad things that does not directly determine the truth or otherwise of atheism.

neatras wrote:
The universe's physical laws are constant, meaning we will not observe a change that alters the relational interaction between physical objects in the universe. Sure, it's an assumption, but it's also one that every single human readily applies to their daily lives, and is only contested with the mysticists try their darndest to subvert science with their superstitions and myths.


I don't think mystics, in general, try to deny the laws of nature. Generally speaking, sensible religious people don't try to subvert science. Leibnitz was a scientist and invented the calculus the same time Newton invented it. The church, down through the ages, supported science and was a great benefactor of science. Your statement is very simplistic.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 49: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:29 pm
Reply

Like this post
Hi, topic author here:
What the heck are you folks talking about?

Please address the OP.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version