Reality, Truth and Nature... Made By God, and in Gods image?

[Tart]

Many question the existence of God, because they assert this is just not natural. That a miracle is not how reality works. That an all powerful God, who can make himself known through signs, revelation, and divine acts is not a truth that our reality aligns with. "a magic sky daddy" as many have put it.

How do we know that God, and His Truth, isnt as much as a piece of our reality as gravity is? If you say you reject any kind of miracles or divine acts, well we dont even know why gravity exists (for example). We know it exists, and that there is a drawing power in matter, a bend in space-time, but we have no clue why this physical power is in matter. How do we know gravity itself isnt a divine power put in matter? If you reject a miracle and divine acts, well gravity itself seems like it is an unexplained power, that might defy our understanding of nature... Gravity could be, just as divine a power as a divine plan put in place by God could be. A God who created humans in His image could be a natural (perhaps for lack of a better word) construct.

It very well may be that humans, created in an image of God, is a natural quality (perhaps for lack of a better word). That our ability to relate with God, is just as real as any natural truth is real.

If you reject God, because He revealed His Truth through divine acts, how would you provide evidence or proof of that claim? That this truth, Gods plan, isnt just as much as a part of our reality as the physical world is, and any natural truth we observe?

[Divine Insight]

That there should be orderliness in our universe...

I don't consider galaxies colliding with one another to be orderly, but let's be honest, who knows what you actually meant by this.

Exactly.

Also, even on earth, I wouldn't call animals that eat each other to be a very orderly universe. As well as terrible diseases and natural disasters that randomly disrupt, harm, and take the lives of innocent people.

To say that the universe is orderly is a real stretch.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 61 by Divine Insight]

Physics says that the creation of the universe was one of the most ordered events of all time. So I am not sure how you are arriving at the conclusion that the universe is not orderly

[Tart]

That there should be orderliness in our universe...

I don't consider galaxies colliding with one another to be orderly, but let's be honest, who knows what you actually meant by this.

Exactly.

Also, even on earth, I wouldn't call animals that eat each other to be a very orderly universe. As well as terrible diseases and natural disasters that randomly disrupt, harm, and take the lives of innocent people.

To say that the universe is orderly is a real stretch.

I dont think you guys are really understanding what is meant when the "Order of Nature" is referenced... It is the basis of science. It is to say that physical laws exist that we can observe and account for... 2 galaxies colliding is a example of natural order at work, as the fundamental laws of physics (like gravity) determine such an event... As far as we know, there is no universe that doesnt have nature laws, and order... Science if founded on the idea that we can understand natural order, and without it there would be know understanding of science.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 63 by Tart]

Physics tells us that the creation event was the most order event in the universe. Now science cannot tell us whether there are other universes or not.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 61 by Divine Insight]

Physics says that the creation of the universe was one of the most ordered events of all time. So I am not sure how you are arriving at the conclusion that the universe is not orderly

1) Tart is not a physicist.
2) You must have glossed over this part of my post:
"I don't consider galaxies colliding with one another to be orderly, but let's be honest, who knows what you actually meant by this."

I have never, nor will I ever make the argument that physicist don't find order in the universe.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 63 by Tart]

Physics tells us that the creation event was the most order event in the universe. Now science cannot tell us whether there are other universes or not.

What is it you are referring to when you use the word 'creation'?
Is it the same thing that these physicists are referring to?

I ask, only because I was not aware of any creation event that has been demonstrated.
Please do so.

[Clownboat]

That there should be orderliness in our universe...

I don't consider galaxies colliding with one another to be orderly, but let's be honest, who knows what you actually meant by this.

Exactly.

Also, even on earth, I wouldn't call animals that eat each other to be a very orderly universe. As well as terrible diseases and natural disasters that randomly disrupt, harm, and take the lives of innocent people.

To say that the universe is orderly is a real stretch.

I dont think you guys are really understanding what is meant when the "Order of Nature" is referenced... It is the basis of science. It is to say that physical laws exist that we can observe and account for... 2 galaxies colliding is a example of natural order at work, as the fundamental laws of physics (like gravity) determine such an event... As far as we know, there is no universe that doesnt have nature laws, and order... Science if founded on the idea that we can understand natural order, and without it there would be know understanding of science.

Let's go with this train of thought for a while shall we?
Therefore... (Your turn).

[Divine Insight]

I dont think you guys are really understanding what is meant when the "Order of Nature" is referenced... It is the basis of science. It is to say that physical laws exist that we can observe and account for... 2 galaxies colliding is a example of natural order at work, as the fundamental laws of physics (like gravity) determine such an event... As far as we know, there is no universe that doesnt have nature laws, and order... Science if founded on the idea that we can understand natural order, and without it there would be know understanding of science.

The problem is that even if the universe was total chaos, that too would be "orderly" in the sense of having its own laws of physics. Even a state of pure chaos has to have laws of physics.

Our universe simply has a lesser degree of Chaos. It's not pure order, nor pure chaos, it's something in between. In fact, something in between pure order and pure chaos is precisely what random chance would be expected to produce.

So our universe is far more likely to be a random accident than anything else. It most certainly doesn't represent perfect order.

[rikuoamero]

That there should be orderliness in our universe...

I don't consider galaxies colliding with one another to be orderly, but let's be honest, who knows what you actually meant by this.

Exactly.

Also, even on earth, I wouldn't call animals that eat each other to be a very orderly universe. As well as terrible diseases and natural disasters that randomly disrupt, harm, and take the lives of innocent people.

To say that the universe is orderly is a real stretch.

I dont think you guys are really understanding what is meant when the "Order of Nature" is referenced... It is the basis of science. It is to say that physical laws exist that we can observe and account for... 2 galaxies colliding is a example of natural order at work, as the fundamental laws of physics (like gravity) determine such an event... As far as we know, there is no universe that doesnt have nature laws, and order... Science if founded on the idea that we can understand natural order, and without it there would be know understanding of science.

Are you of the opinion that Jesus's resurrection is an example of nature? Or is it something God did, something supernatural? If the latter, wouldn't that mean that there really are no such things as laws of nature in a theological sense?