The Circular Fallacy of Christianity.

[Divine Insight]

Supposedly Jesus is going to save us from eternal damnation.

The problem here is that Christianity is the religion that demands that some God is out to damn us in the first place. With out the damning God of Christianity there is nothing for Jesus to save us from.

Oh sure, if we were previously Muslims who already believed that there is a God who is out to damn us if we don't to as he says, they it might make sense for us to turn to Christianity and ask Jesus to save us from the damning God that we already believe exists.

However, even the original Jews didn't believe that some God was out to damn them. That whole idea was invented by the Romans when they created Christianity.

But in the meantime Christianity is a circular religion. You need to believe that some nasty God is out to damn you before the idea that his Son is required to save you from this damning "Father God".

And then ironically Christians have even elevated Jesus to being one and the same as the Father God. So Jesus is going to save you from his own wrath.

In order to be a Christian you must first believe that some God is out to damn you. Otherwise having Jesus as your savior makes no sense. And in Christianity the greatest irony of all is that the savior is supposed to be the same God who is out to damn you.

Without Christianity and offshoots from it like Islam there would be no reason to think that there exist some nasty God who is out to damn us.

So Christianity not only offers a "savior" in Christ, but they are also offering a "damning" God in Yahweh. Without a damning Yahweh, a saving Christ makes no sense.

Question for discussion or debate:

When did you accept Yahweh as your "Damner"?

Hopefully before you accepted Christ as your "Savior".

[1213]

If you are giong to remain in the words of Jesus then you are being "obedient" and thus earning your own salvation.

No, by being obedient, I don’t earn salvation.

There can be no such thing as "evil people" unless God had created them to be evil.

Why not? If God created people free, it is possible that they choose to be evil on their own.

Not only this, but you seem to be forgetting that in Christianity all humans are necessarily evil. The one's who are saved by grace are still evil humans who are merely being granted undeserved amnesty.

I think that is not what the Bible tells. But it is possible that person have been evil and then, when he is saved, he has become non-evil. Bible tells people must be born anew and become righteous. And eternal life is for righteous. So, there must happen change, if person is evil, or unrighteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

"Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

This is necessarily the case, because if humans earned their own eternal life for not being evil then there would be no need for Jesus to be their "savior" since their own refusal to become evil is their own salvation.

Eternal life is a gift for righteous. I believe it is gift for righteous, because they have right understanding and want to do good and not evil. It is not a reward.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Salvation means that sins are forgiven. If one doesn’t have sin, there is no reason for forgiveness and person doesn’t need salvation.

If you are an evil person then, by your own argument, you should not be permitted to live forever. And if you are not an evil person, then you don't need Jesus to "save" you since you have saved yourself by choosing not to be an evil person.

If I would not need saving, then I couldn’t save me, because there would be no reason to be saved. Jesus saves from the judgment that comes because of sin. If one doesn’t have sin, there is nothing to save.

So Christianity doesn't make any sense no matter how you try to twist it around.

I agree that your version of Christianity doesn’t make sense. The Biblical version does make sense.

[Hawkins]

However, even the original Jews didn't believe that some God was out to damn them. That whole idea was invented by the Romans when they created Christianity.

It is a false claim. Eternal hell and immortal soul are original and fundamental Pharisaic concepts upheld by Jews in majority back in Jesus' days.

The following is how Josephus the Pharisee tried to explain what Hades/sheol is to the Greeks.

An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades:

Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment

[amortalman]

Because the Bible describes a God who clearly don't have a clue what he's doing.

LOL!

The Bible describes a God whose thoughts are much higher than our thoughts, and whose ways are much higher than ours.[/unquote]

I have heard many Christians use this verse to try to justify anything and everything their god does. It's the "fallback" verse that is supposed to make the more ridiculous actions of their God more palatable, and senseless things believable. But it is nothing more than a copout. It asks you to suspend rational thought and common sense in favor of nonsense.







God doesn't perpetrate the evil things that happen, man does. But God does use those evil things -- sinlessly and lovingly -- for ultimately good and loving purposes. Knowing this and trusting in this is a big part of what we Christians call faith. James is very helpful here:

"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (1:2-4)

The trials themselves are not pleasant; no one wants to suffer, and our suffering is not God's desire. But there is great purpose in it. We endure trials and suffering, knowing that what we will attain to during and after having done so will eventually -- and maybe not even in this life, but eventually -- lead to comfort, rest, satisfaction, and completeness. It's in our suffering that God does His greatest work in us. Like that great hymn, How Firm a Foundation says:

“When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie, My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply; the flame shall not hurt thee; I only design thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.�

Grace and peace to you, DI.

[Divine Insight]

If God created people free, it is possible that they choose to be evil on their own.

No actually that wouldn't be possible. If people weren't created evil then no one could choose to become evil.

You can't chose your nature anymore than you can choose the color of your eyes.

In fact, it's extremely questionable whether any human "chooses" to be evil or good.

I've been over this question many times throughout my life. Am I a good person because I chose to be good? Or am I actually a good person because I had no choice in the matter? The latter may very well be true. But yeah, it would kind of be cool if I could take credit for being a good person. The problem with this is that this was extremely easy for me. I simply don't have any desire to do bad things. So did I chose my 'desires'?

Why was I given a "Get out of Temptation Free" card?

I'm not even tempted to do bad things. So it's not like I need to fight off the desire to do bad things.

In fact, it would seem to me that the only people who could possibly become Christians are people who actually have a desire to do bad things and need to resist the temptation to do them.

But if you don't have those burning desires, then why would you believe that you are being tempted by sin when you know that's a lie?

The only way that you could believe that it's true is if you want to do bad things.

So I can only guess that Christians necessarily want to do bad things. Otherwise the religion wouldn't make any sense to them.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 43 by Divine Insight]

I'm not even tempted to do bad things. So it's not like I need to fight off the desire to do bad things.

In fact, it would seem to me that the only people who could possibly become Christians are people who actually have a desire to do bad things and need to resist the temptation to do them.

But if you don't have those burning desires, then why would you believe that you are being tempted by sin when you know that's a lie? Think

The only way that you could believe that it's true is if you want to do bad things.

So I can only guess that Christians necessarily want to do bad things. Otherwise the religion wouldn't make any sense to them.

I am not sure I could have said it better myself. Well, on second thought I am pretty sure I could have said it better, but what you said will do.

The very fact that you do not know that you have sinned is evidence that you are not a Christian. Same as any other person who may profess they are Christians and yet have not remorse for their sin.

That is what happens when you become a Christian you are awaken to the fact that you are a sinner.

Romans 7:7

What then shall we say? Is the Law sin? By no means! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the Law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the Law had not said, “Do not covet.�

You see when a person becomes a Christian they understand they are a sinner.

They understand

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". And that there is nothing they can do about their sin problem. This is why Jesus declared,

"I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me."

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Do Christians believe they are sinners? Yes

But they believe that they are not condemned by faith in Jesus Christ God's one and only Son.

Ok, now you can go back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Divine Insight]

The very fact that you do not know that you have sinned is evidence that you are not a Christian.

How silly is this?

Of course based on Christianity I'm a huge sinner! I don't deny that for one second.

According to Christianity I'm a sinner the moment I question the existence and authority of their jealous God who demands obedience of all his ignorant commandments and directive.

According to Christianity EVERYONE is a sinner.

Do you think I don't know this?

All you doing here is repeating the nonsense that Christianity teaches.

Do Christians believe they are sinners? Yes

Of course they do.

Christians fall for the accusations of Christianity hook line and sinker.

Do you honestly think I'm not aware of this?

The thing I'm saying is that those accusations are utterly absurd. Why you would believe these things is beyond me.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Well, good you believe your are a sinner. But not really because it is not motivating you to do anything about it.

This is the difference between a believer in Christ and and the rest of the world. They agree with God that sin is a problem. In fact, I am willing to be that you do not think that everything the Bible says is a sin is a sin to you.

And you are free to do that. God is giving you another chance right here to repent of your sin. This is how patient God is. Giving people chance after chance to agree with Him that they are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only answer for the sin problem that they face.

He is good even to you who, I would assume, curse His name. But God is patient will that none should perish but all come to repentance.

[Divine Insight]

Well, good you believe your are a sinner. But not really because it is not motivating you to do anything about it.

I believe I am a "sinner" according to the twisted immoral dogma of Christianity. But that's irrelevant to reality.

This is the difference between a believer in Christ and and the rest of the world. They agree with God that sin is a problem. In fact, I am willing to be that you do not think that everything the Bible says is a sin is a sin to you.

Well, for one thing the Bible is so totally self-contradictory in what it claims to be a "sin" that it's impossible to even know what is a sin according to the Bible.

Even the so-called "Christians" can't agree among themselves what constitutes or doesn't constitute a "sin".

So until this confused divisive collection of religious theists can get their act together on what does or doesn't constitute a "sin" then the very term is utterly meaningless.

And you are free to do that. God is giving you another chance right here to repent of your sin. This is how patient God is. Giving people chance after chance to agree with Him that they are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only answer for the sin problem that they face.

Are you now "Preaching" your immoral religion to me?

Sorry bud, but you don't speak for any God and you don't speak for Jesus "Christ".

According to the Gospels rumors Jesus has already guaranteed me eternal life in heaven due to my own natural character.

So if you think that Jesus would need to give me "another chance" then you don't understand what Jesus taught. According to Jesus I have already earned my place in his eternal heaven, and I've done so on my own merit. By the way, according to Jesus I neither need to be sin-free, nor do I need to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

He is good even to you who, I would assume, curse His name.

Why would you assume that I curse the name of any God?

I thought you liked to deal with "facts". If so then what's up with always jumping to totally false conclusions about other people that you don't even know?

But God is patient will that none should perish but all come to repentance.

According to the New Testament Jesus said that only a few will make it to eternal life.

So you better go back and re-read you fantasy book until you get your "facts" straight.

The God of the Bible hates the vast majority of humans. At one point he drowned them all out. And even when he became so desperate that he felt that he had to have humans brutally crucify himself or his demigod Son on a pole, even that desperate act would only result in saving a "few" humans according to Jesus.

The God you worship is clearly a looser God. By his own confession. He looses the vast majority of souls he creates. In fact, he is such an inept creator that he isn't even capable of creating so much as a single solitary human who can resist disobeying him.

Keep in mind that, the religion as you are defending it, requires that all humans must beg this God for undeserved amnesty because they are all unworthy sinners.

So the Biblical God will have a heaven filled with undeserving unworthy sinners who were only able to get there by agreeing to crucify God on a pole to save their undeserving souls.

The Biblical Heaven will be filled with undeserving sinners who are prepared to have their God brutally beaten and crucified if it will result in their own survival.

I can't imagine why you would even want to go to such a place and live with such disgusting people.

Personally, I would much rather just die and cease to exist. In fact, a secular existence would be far superior to the existence you are preaching. There may not be a God in secularism. But no God is better than the ignorant looser God you are attempting to defend. There's nothing moral or righteous about a God who creates defective humans, then condemns the vast majority of them, only to save a few of them so that he can hold their defective nature over their heads for the rest of eternity. A defect that they can't even be responsible for since they didn't create themselves.

If all humans have a "sinful nature" that they cannot resist or get rid of on their own merit, then they can hardly be held responsible for having been created in such an impossible and hopeless situation.

Clearly the religion you are supporting is actually nothing more than an extremely underhanded mythology created by authoritarians to try to keep the masses under their thumb.

They even told the masses to stone sinners to death precisely because they knew that there was no God who could do this himself. So they had their gullible followers doing the dirty work that their God is supposed to be doing.

It's a pretty sad situation don't you think? And here you are loaning your support to it.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 46 by EarthScienceguy]

Well, good you believe your are a sinner.

Not that DI is unable to or anything, but I honestly don't think he believes he is a sinner. As he says in his latest reply, he believes that what this theology says about him is that he is a sinner.
Not that he agrees that the theology is true, that it lines up with reality.

He is merely acknowledging the claims that they make.

But not really because it is not motivating you to do anything about it.

Doesn't this same theology teach that there is nothing one can do to stop being a sinner? That all have fallen short of the glory of God, that it took God/Jesus himself paying the penalty?

This is the difference between a believer in Christ and and the rest of the world. They agree with God that sin is a problem.

They agree with the premise that there is this thing called sin, that they claim is a problem so confounding, so well problematic that it took God sacrificing his incarnate self as a son of himself to himself to solve.

In fact, I am willing to be that you do not think that everything the Bible says is a sin is a sin to you.

This is true for myself, I am not going to speak for DI here but I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees. I wear clothing of multiple fabrics, I have stolen, I don't keep the Sabbath holy.

And you are free to do that.

Are we? Are we free in the same sense as a cop might say to us "You're free to speed if you want...but if you do, I'm going to bust your ass and haul you in"?

God is giving you another chance right here to repent of your sin.

Does this repentance have anything at all to do with believing that God incarnated himself as a Jewish man two thousand years ago, got nailed to a piece of wood, died and then came back to life? What does that have to do with repentance of one's sins?

This is how patient God is.

Stories from the Bible depict God as otherwise. Some depict him as striking down Jewish people dead in large numbers just because some people complained he was striking them dead in large numbers!

Giving people chance after chance to agree with Him that they are a sinner

Why is it so important that people believe this? Does it not strike you as odd at the thought of thinking of God as perfect, and yet here he is, apparently failing time after time after time at getting people to agree with him that they are sinners?
I think a perfect God simply could not fail in its goals, (whatever they might be), the very concept of failure for it would be absurd. How about you? Do you think of a perfect God as highly as I do?

and that Jesus Christ is the only answer for the sin problem that they face.

Given that there are people like myself who tried that solution and yet it failed...doesn't this strike you as maybe this Jesus Christ solution isn't all it's cooked up to be?

He is good even to you who, I would assume, curse His name.

DI has repeatedly stated on these forums that the closest he gets to cursing God would be the hateful bloodthirsty monster depicted in the Bible...not an actual real loving God(ess).
Tell me...what does your theology says happens to those who live their lives and then die, not believing Jesus Christ is who your theology says he is?

But God is patient will that none should perish but all come to repentance.

In your mind does "come to repentance" equal "personal growth"?